Wow. Ok, so I was telling Noah that there just weren’t any problems with Puppy that I knew about. Well, now I’m starting to learn about some problems and the vast majority of them can be summed up as, “Wow is he young.” I really have no experience dealing with someone who is as young maturity-wise as Puppy is, I think that is making things harder.
What was last nights bump you ask? Well. It was related to my gun squick. Most people don’t know much about my gun squick, owing mostly to the fact that I am a semi-rabid libertarian and I am very firmly pro-gun rights. I believe that people have the right to bear arms. It is in the Constitution. End of story. Now, we get on to my personal feelings… guns freak me the fuck out and I hate hate hate hate hate them. I can handle brief theoretical conversations about them, but I can’t do graphic or in depth conversations about shooting. I just can’t handle it. I will freak out. My father held a gun to my head when I was a child and asked me if I really deserved to live. He was a psycho gun collector in general so I just don’t have positive associations with guns. I think I tolerate the fact that there are fourteen guns in this little apartment pretty well. I haven’t had a total panic attack–I just don’t think about it. la la la I don’t see anything.
So anyway, last night Ken was over (Puppy has this friend. I’m having problems with the guy because he is racist, homophobic, and sexist… not to mention that he rants fucking constantly about how all people who were born/raised/choose to live in California are stupid, rude, assholes who should all be shot to make the world a better place. Great guy, huh? I don’t know what Puppy sees in him.) and the first while was fine. They were watching the dvd of a tv show that I think is stupid “Sledge Hammer”–anyone heard of this piece of shit? I ignored the idiocy and tried to be vaguely social and polite, well at least until they switched to talking about the machine gun shoot that they are going to. There is some event in Nevada that they are going to attend where you get to shoot a bunch of really serious assault weapons and I don’t know what all psycho crap. Ok, those two sentences are about all that I want to know about this event. Guess how long they talked about it. Guess how long they both actively were trying to provide me with excruciating detail of what you can do to someone with most of these weapons. 🙁 At one poing I looked at Puppy and told him to stop the stream of horrible shit coming out of his mouth and he didn’t understand. I told him that no really, I’m done just stop. I called him by his name and asked him to stop. One of our agreements is that I won’t use his name in front of people–he didn’t catch on though. I got up and went in his bedroom and shut the door. I picked up a cd so that I could play it in my computer so that I wouldn’t hear their conversation. I should have just walked out of the apartment and gone home.
After Ken left Puppy and I had a long serious talk. He had not understood what I meant when I previously said that I have gun squicks. He apologized over and over again. He asked me to commit to taking him aside in the future when he is doing such complete asshole things and let him know that he is doing them. He doesn’t seem to want to be an asshole, it just kind of happens sometimes because he is an oblivious boy. I don’t know that I can commit to telling him to stop when he is being a dick. My response is entirely to walk away and take responsibility for my feelings that way. I don’t want to tell him how to behave. But it seems like it is more fair for me to talk to him when I am upset about stuff–that is just so freakin hard for me. 🙁
He won’t let me stew when I am upset. He asks me questions until I talk to him. I have managed to train him basically entirely out of “you” statements–which I consider really amazing. He talks about his feelings and why he is behaving the way he is without blaming me for anything. If he fucks up in any way he is very ok with accepting responsibility for that and he tries to rectify the situation. I’m really impressed by that.
He is still young, and he fucks up quite a bit… but I don’t think he will do the same thing twice. That counts for a lot, right?
I have seen Sledge Hammer once upon a time. I found it silly and occasionally funny but I haven’t had the desire to pick up the dvds. Just not worth my time.
Netflix
but I don’t think he will do the same thing twice. That counts for a lot, right?
This may have been a hypothetical question, but I do think it counts for a lot, because your reaction to his fuckups is at least as much of something to work out as his fuckups are to begin with. As with most relationship things, I don’t believe that assigning “fault” is appropriate or useful, because there are many things on both sides that contribute to an interaction, and the things change with each combination of personalities. If you really feel you can trust him to learn and improve, then I think you’re in a good spot. It’s only up to him to prove you right.
I think that saying “no one is at fault” means that no one will take responsibility and no one will try to change the problem. I fuck up a lot. I take full and complete responsibility when I do. And the thing is, I use the term “fuck up” pretty liberally. I don’t attach as strong or as negative of reactions as many others might.
I think him ignoring my multiple requests for him to stop was a fuck up. Am I super angry about it? No. Was I annoyed? Yes. Did I leave the room because that was my option without making a scene? Yes. I’m really big on not making scenes when it comes to stuff that is about my emotional reaction. I just walk away.
[This is going on a concept tangent, but] I do agree that saying “no one is at fault” is a copout. In my experience, people tend to equate “fault” with “responsibility” far too closely. Since there is often a poor connotation connected to the idea of “fault,” people try to get out of it, and end up avoiding responsibility as well. I prefer to take the entire idea of “fault” out of the picture, and just think about cause and responsibility, which nearly always lies on *both* sides.
In this situation, I think that both his over-talking and your sensitivity contributed to you being upset. When you both take responsibility for your contribution (not necessarily changing, but dealing in some way), I see “healthy interaction” flags going up. Go you.
FWIW, I’m more likely to walk away than to pull him aside, too. I don’t like confrontation, and I like it even less in public, even if we are aren’t sharing. On the other hand, it might also be seen as a way of avoiding sharing important information. Hmm… I do think I would prefer to be pulled aside, myself, because I want to know whether I’m putting my foot in my mouth as soon as possible.
Part of my thing is: at no time is it inappropriate or wrong for him to talk about the stuff they were talking about. That is in no part in any way related to what I think of as a fuck up. The only part that is a fuck up is ignoring my request to please stop.
I am well aware that my upset about the conversation in general is 100% me and my shit. I don’t ask anyone else to be responsible for that. I don’t think I even imply that I would be ok with anyone else being responsible for that. But given that he has indicated that he would like me to ask him to stop and I did and he ignored it… that is where the issue came up in relation to me being upset with him.
I am not upset with them for having the conversation. I have walked away from hundreds of gun conversations over the years, they all have every right to happen. I just don’t want to hear them. So I should leave.
I’m worried my previous comments sounded preachy, and if so, I apologize. I agree totally with your thoughts on responsibility, and I think the whole situation was handled well, and that’s all I was trying to say.
I am sniping because of something else. You are responding in an upfront and honest way. Thank you. I am trying to just respond to what I think you mean, but I don’t always do that in a way that doesn’t sound somewhat hostile.
Honestly, I’m surprised you guys are doing so well considering how long you’ve been together. It takes me close to a year to get to a point as serious as you guys seem to be. Just, y’know, words of encouragement. You guys ARE doing damn well, all things considered, as far as I can tell.
That having been said… I’m one of those guys who can be a total ass and not realize it. Lots of it is cultural, and since there is now an intersection between your and his culture, you’re both going to behave innapropriately in the other person’s culture for a bit. It seems that you have a wider range of cultural experiences, and can “play it safe” a bit easier than he can. Give him some time and help him learn what it is he needs to know, and he ought to come along just fine. Good luck!
Thanks sweetie.
I think that a big part of the reason that things have jumped to being so serious so fast is that he and I have both had major, many year, live-in primarys that we were really happy with. We both are nesters who are happiest with someone to come home to. I know there is a large amount of that influencing the fact that we both settled in with one another so quickly. We click on enough levels that are really hard to match that I think we are both willing to do a lot to grow with one another and make this work.
I think he is worth the time and energy for us to learn how to get along better. Otherwise–I wouldn’t do it. 🙂
my friends page loads a blank page
There’s an agreement that I make with every single guy I date. Its based on this one guy I dated back in art school who noticed that I tended to “play scenes” rather than have conversations. In otherwords I had scripted the whole thing out in my head and I wasn’t actually being present in the moment and listening and responding to the other person because I was so stuck on what I wanted to say and how I wanted the interchange to go — he said it was something he saw very commonly with Theater folk (you get so used to doing lines that you forget how to have a conversation).
Anyway, He explained to me the problem and then any time he caught me doing it he would say, “Rebecca, your doing it again.” And it would be as though I were in Ballet class and the teacher had just pointed out my posture was off — no emotions about it, I would just accept the feedback and alter what I was doing.
Within 3 month I was broken of the habit.
The people around us often serve as “mirrors” if you will to our lives, we’re so habitual about certain things that even if we want to stop them its kind of hard to do it without that mirror to look into — this is why dance studios are usually surrounded by them. This is why its a good idea evey once in a while to videotape yourself teaching a class. Its really hard to ‘see’ yourself and particularly if your trying to change things about yourself external feedback is required.
In essence what I’m saying is the puppy has told you he wants to change these things, expect him to slump regularly in the begining but if you just point out what he’s doing (honey your doing it again is nice ‘safe’ pharase) I’m guessing you’ll find he’ll do that sort of stuff a lot less often till it peters outs…… and if not you dump his sorry ass
Re: my friends page loads a blank page
It sounds like you are plugging for me to do what he requested–which is ask him to step outside with me when he starts doing something triggering and explain what is going on.
This is so fucking hard for me. I don’t like the idea of consciously and deliberately telling someone to change their behavior to make me more comfortable, I would rather just walk away.
His comment in response to that was that he has a choice whether or not to engage in behavior that will make me uncomfortable, but he would like to know when he is making that choice and he doesn’t know unless I tell him. It isn’t that he will 100% change to suit me, but he wants to know when and how he is making the decision to do/say stuff that makes me uncomfortable.
He really doesn’t suck.
There’s is a big difference between him choosing to make you uncomfortable and being oblivious. From your telling it seems clear (at least in hindsight) that you sent some signals that weren’t picked up on, and that you should (there’s that evil “S” word, I know) have been able to tell that they weren’t being picked up on.
And, you’re not telling him to change his behavior – it’s letting him know that something is bothering you. “I am upset” vs. “You are upsetting me”
Sheesh, you talk about training _him_ out of “you” statements…
I take full responsibility for my upset. That is why I leave. I am not asking anyone to accomodate me or to change to suit me.
That does, indeed, count for a lot. Also – you’d probably do well to make some kind of signal, such as using his name, explicit. Y’know, some kind of “I’m really not comfortable” signal. This could be much easier for you to do in the moment, especially if it comes with an attached “I agree not to discuss the issue in front of the people we’re currently with” rider to go with the “you think I’m being inconsiderate and you’d like me to stop” which is the basic meaning.
Oddly enough, yeah, I *do* remember Sledge Hammer. It’s one of the shows I rattle off when talking about how Danny Elfman wrote the opening music to a surprisingly high percentage of all 1980s television. It’s pretty good opening music.
I have trouble getting passed the fact that I think the main character is a fucking moron. I can’t like the opening music.
See comment to Rebecca for the answer to the ‘take him aside’ bit.
the main character is a fucking moron
You’ll have to forgive my memory here, it’s been close to 20 years since I watched that show – but isn’t that the whole point? That he’s a completely ham-handed overblown moron bumbling along? 😉
Yes. And I hate shows like that and I hate characters like that and…
*grrrr*
*hugs*
and Yay! to you both.
It isn’t a matter of whether or not there are bumps, its a matter of how they are resolved. If you listen to each other, care about each other, and show respect for each other, the long term prognosis is good.
I used to watch Sledge Hammer on a regular basis. I have a friend who used to have parties based on the series (“Hammer Fest”), during which he’d play the show all day long, but I never did make it to that party.
Good luck with finding the medium in which your puppy looses the oblivious factor, and in which you express your needs for that to happen. He is working on learning to read you better in such situations as last night, as well as preventing such discomfort when possible. Your relationship with him is inspiring you to learn how to communicate your needs and desires even when doing so is difficult. That you are putting such efforts into the relationship demonstrates how much the relationship means to you. This is a very deep thing, and I’d be surprised if the two of you don’t come out closer for it.
This is sort of an aggregate reply so I’ll just make it a new thread.
This seems to be what we’ve got so far.
Comunication=good
Making a scene=bad
Learning from mistakes=good
embarassing partner in front of their friends=bad
Might I sugest what worked for and me when we were in that akward stage?
Agree on some sort of signal that each of you can use to tell the other you are uncomfortable. Spell out what you are going to say, and that it means “I am uncomfortable, please change the subject.” That way you can call him on it without dragging him away from his friend, and explaining the whole thing. The explanations should come later, so you each know exactly what the other objected to.
Just make sure it’s a phrase that you don’t use in normal conversation.
Or, pick a favorite obscure word… like, say… irrevicable(meaning not reversable). In the gun conversation you could have chimed in with “Wow that’s a lot of irrevicable damage.” Puppy would know to let the conversation drop, and Puppy’s friend just thinks you have an odd vocabulary.
This is a really good solid idea, and I appreciate it. The only problem I see with this is that I am the one with all of the issues and I have an awful lot of them. Puppy wants me to tell him everytime something is an issue for me. Well, that means I am going to stop him two or three times a day. And I don’t actually want him walking on egg shells like that. I just have that many issues–so I try to deal on my own. I only tell people when it is a really big issue and only if there was a fairly major stepping on of an issue.
I’m too fucking sensitive. And I know it. I don’t know how to change it though, but I really don’t think it is reasonable for someone to try and accomodate all of the ways in which I am sensitive.
It seems to me like it’s a good idea too. If you think you have “too many” issues to use the code-word every time one comes up it’s still your perogative to decide whether an issue is serious enough to warrant it or not. I don’t think deciding on a code word obligates you to use it every time you twitch. If he’s really trying to understand and be sensitive to your issues (which it very much sounds like he is) he’s going to have to accept that one of those issues is that you can’t discuss sensitive issues in front of other people so he CAN’T expect you to just drop everything and have a serious conversation at a moment’s notice. If an issue comes up that bothers you and you leave it to later when you are alone with him I would hope that saying “I didn’t use the code word because even if I did it would require too much explanation at the time. But I’m addressing it with you NOW, which is the soonest I felt comfortable doing so” would be enough to smooth things over.
Sounds like you guys are on a good path so far.
Fair enough… and it would really be up to you when to use the buzzwords. I was thinking of it as a last ditch “you are being an ass and if I have to tell you why right now I will tear your throat out in front of guests” kind of situation. Not the “cut it out I’m not in the mood” kind of situation.
Having a prearanged signal might cut back on the “I thought you were kidding” thing too.
something to think about anyway…
A conversational safeword. Awesome idea.
Okay, prefacing with ‘this is how I’m affected.” Please note, this does not reflect the views of this station.
I’m kind of bugged, on a few counts:
First, I would be *more* than annoyed if my partner ignored my multiple requests. The actions you describe would make me feel that I was not important enough to have my requests considered.
Like you, I would choose to absent myself from the situation; I feel that would be taking responsibility for my feelings. Generally I calm down and when it’s just the two of us, talk about what happened.
I’m in your court when it comes to telling someone else how to behave. To be asked to commit to informing my partner their behavior is bothering me hits my co-dependent button big time. My partner and I have worked out some safe words/safe actions around this, but it’s still hard sometimes.
I’m not sure I get this: Puppy didn’t understand your gun squick? Did he not know that guns were a limit? Or is it that he forgot you had a gun squick?
To me (staying in that “I” world), the degree or pathology of why a squick exists is immaterial to how I expect my partner to acknowledge said squick. If they know and remember that the squick exists, I expect that they will try to avoid hitting it. If they forgot, I hope I could calmly remind them.
I know you are both truly committed to making this work, despite the fuck-ups. Hey without chaos, and all that…
On ignoring the requests to stop: he for some reason thought I was playing. Also, being around Ken brings out his show off-middle school boy crap in high form. *sigh*
Really, outside of just leaving I don’t know what else I could have done to deal with my reaction by myself. It is such a big deal for me to deal with my stuff on my own.
I had told Puppy that I didn’t like guns much. And he knew there was some incident when I was a kid, but I hadn’t told him much about it and he didn’t understand just how much they bother me. It had apparently never occured to him that I would get *that* upset about them. Or that I would feel the need to just leave like I did.
I have been very safe/secure in the past many years in dealing with my gun squick. All the gun boys at the Palo Alto munch understood how much of a problem I had with guns and would either warn me that the conversation was about to get uncomfortable for me or they would change the topic at my request. I have gotten secure in that situation and having to ask for that kind of consideration from a new person isn’t easy. But I did it last night.
Thanks for your words Loren. *hugs*
And he knew there was some incident when I was a kid, but I hadn’t told him much about it and he didn’t understand just how much they bother me. It had apparently never occured to him that I would get *that* upset about them.
I think therein lies the problem. A *lot* of people “don’t like guns” – this does not remotely approximately the level of squick you have. It sounds to me like he was being a disgusting boy and dangling rat tails in front of the girls to make them squeal, and didn’t actually realize how much he was upsetting you.
As comfortable as you guys are together, he doesn’t know everything about you. For chrissakes, I’m still pointing things out to my Bear that make me happy or sad, and we’ve been together 13 years. Cardinal sin of women – expecting mind readers. Not putting blame, saying.
Echoing what other folks have said – having a code phrase that says “This is really fucking important” is a good thing to have. A subtle code phrase, such as “Puppy, sweetie” (substituting his real name, which you say you don’t use) is simple and uninvasive.
Some people use safewords when they play, because they’re not certain about limits or don’t know what to negotiate. A realtionship safeword, that tells your partner “we’re reaching a limit” or “we haven’t talked about this” is not a bad idea at all.
He won’t let me stew when I am upset. He asks me questions until I talk to him.
Yay him.