I really like a lot of the theory behind unschooling (google it if you want to know what it is) but I’m pretty opposed to radical unschooling. I’ve been having interesting conversations with Noah about this topic and the gaps in education he worries about. I have different things I worry about. I’m not sure where things will shake out for us exactly, but I’m kind of randomly curious.
What things do y’all think are necessary for one to be an educated and/or well rounded person? What do you actually think it is necessary to learn?
I think that a big part of school is learning to work within a system, to respect and follow rules, and to learn to build the social relationships that one does in school. I’m not a big fan of home schooling in general, and this seems like kind of the worst of both world.
So what you think is important about schooling is that people learn to follow directions. Got it. Well, that seems like a good use of 13 years of ones life.
How much experience do you actually have with home schooling?
ETA: I’m in a particularly snotty mood right now. I probably shouldn’t be responding to comments at all right this second. It’s not you.
Nah, I don’t think that’s the only thing that one gets from 13 years of schooling. However, I think it’s one of many valuable lessons.
I’ve known several home-schooled kids as adults, and a couple in college. They mostly didn’t seem as able to adapt to varying corporate and social dynamics. I think that being immersed in the group dynamics of school has a lot of value in learning how to deal with various personality types and social situations.
One of the most important things that one learns in school is how to deal with a diversity of viewpoints and opinions. Home schooling often seems more monocultural to me.
I’ll pretend there was no snottiness in your response. 🙂
Thanks! 🙂
Well, but I’m rather shitty at adapting to varying corporate and social dynamics. If I don’t like how someone is playing I take my football and go home. I went through public school. I know an awful lot of people like me. It seems as though my anacdata and your anecdata kind of cancel out to mean that neither system is perfect and people can be dipshits whichever way they are educated.
I’m not sure that the problems you mention are inherent to home schooling. Or maybe I mean that they are not necessarily required unavoidable problems of home schooling.
I think that home schooling is probably as monocultural as the people doing it. And there is some very good research out there about how public schools segregate into microclimates of monoculture as well. (Uhm, I threw away most of those studies when I did a huge book purge a couple years ago but I could probably find someone who still has access to them from the credentialing program if you care.) One easy book to find on the topic is “Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?”: A Psychologist Explains the Development of Racial Identity.
I feel I was rather distinctly failed by the public education system. The state of California believes I am qualified to educate other peoples’ kids. I sorta believe that means I’m probably equipped to give my kids a better experience.
(I don’t think I was snotty this time.)
I agree that monoculture is not inherent to home schooling but I think it exists in most home school environments. I think if you home school, you need to be very proactive about social experiences and other points of view.
Yes, the play ground/lunch room/after school activities often segregate themselves. But during class you are frequently pushed back together. That way group discussions and assignments are important parts of the learning process.
I’m going to be a total bitch and say that I spent a fair bit of time in the town you grew up in. There wasn’t any diversity of culture. Sorry, no. You don’t get to play that card. And then you went on to CMU? Yeah. Really, completely and totally no.
I think there is more diversity at LGHS than you give it credit for.
I’m sure that there is more diversity than in homeschooling for religious reasons.
Well, I went to the high school too. I don’t think I somehow missed out on there being more poor kids than there were (we all collected our free lunch tickets together… really you could count us on one hand) and there weren’t many more kids of black/latino ethnicity. There were a lot of Asians and imports from Europe. I’ll grant you that. Given that I have been to a great many schools with actual diversity… no… I’m not underrating LGHS.
And uhm… those homeschooling for religious reasons are becoming a smaller and smaller minority of homeschoolers. It’s really a strawman argument to say that homeschooling is monocultural because one small sect is.
I don’t think he’s saying that homeschooling is a monoculture– I know I’m not. I do think that individual homeschooled children live in more of a monoculture than classroom-schooled children.
I doubt that Berkeley hippie homeschooled kids spend a lot of time hanging out with fundamentalist Christian homeschooled kids. Berkeley hippie homeschooled kids probably hang out mostly with other Berkeley hippie kids.
Sort of. I’m just branching out into my local homeschooling community (it hasn’t felt real necessary so far–ya know?) and I’m finding a wide variety of people.
To very briefly profile (cause I’m awesome like that): one family is very mixed ethnicity (they claim four different origins and are pretty enthused about all of them), vegan, completely anti-vax (won’t really talk about that one with them because I think she’s not looking at any real science on this issue), just high school education for the parents, willing to argue about some topics but mostly they prize ‘getting along’, rather low income for this area (under $25k/annually), and somewhat religious.
Another is SUPER hippy in a way that mocks my wussy hippy attempts, very very woo woo pagan, college education for both parents, I can get the mom to argue but it takes a lot of work, both parents work at least some (juggling schedules), pescatarian, they read as naive in some funny ways because they come from a small town back east.
Another is the one that reminds me the most of Noah and I. 😀 Very food focused and they like their (ethically raised) meat and plenty of fat and sugar, extremely politically aware, formerly poly (at least the wife was), freak friendly, loud, argumentative (in that awesome way), atheist, doing very well financially on one income.
I could keep going. It’s at least slightly more diverse than you think. The local homeschooling group does actually have fundamentalist Christians at their meet ups. I haven’t started going to the bigger meet ups yet (I’ve been pregnant and miserable for a long time) but from what I can tell it’s full of people who homeschool for all kinds of reasons. Like our neighbor a few doors down who can’t have a 3 minute conversation without praising Jesus (also a homeschooling family).
I actually feel it is on my head as a homeschooling parent to ensure that my kids have a well rounded experience of the world and that involves putting up with people I don’t like because my kids might like them.
I’m getting off topic in my last response. I posted the question originally because if you think that being able to adapt to varying corporate/social dynamics is important, why do you think that you MUST be in school to learn that?
And living with Noah and I, how do you think a kid will avoid diversity of viewpoints? 😀 We don’t agree on much and kiddo will be dragged along to all of our friends–pretty much all of whom love a good argument.
I think being immersed in the social dynamics of your peers for a large N hours per day necessarily gives you more experience in group dynamics than not doing so. There’s also a shared cultural experience of having been through the school system, and I think that has some value.
As for a diversity of opinions, you and Noah are both educated, reasonably well-off white folks. So are most of your friends, I would imagine. While I have no doubt that you know a fairly broad spectrum of people, they’re probably relatively consistent within certain sets of beliefs and cultural norms. Plus, they’re all adults, and that’s a fundamentally different situation than being in a diverse group of peers.
Certainly, people can be dipshits no matter how they’re educated. Being in school doesn’t guarantee you’ll be well-adjusted, and being home-schooled doesn’t mean you won’t. However, I think p(well-adjusted) is far higher for classroom-schooled kids than for home-schooled ones, simply because the classroom-schooled kids are more experienced at interacting with their peers.
Admittedly, kids who were home-schooled during my generation often wound up that way because their parents were somewhat conservatively religious, and the parents didn’t want them exposed to the diversity of thought that they would get in school. This clearly sends p(fucked-up) through the roof.
Something to consider- does “well-adjusted” equate to “blending in to a certain group” or “able to deal with a wide range of situations” or “emotionally healthy” or something else?
I’m just asking because in my experience, many of the (often white, middle-class, liberal) homeschoolers I know are perfectly “well adjusted” even if they’re a bit “weird.” They get along well with people, are well liked and respected, but don’t “fit in.”
There’s a certain point here that’s very important, and that’s the habit of working in a system. I was homeschooled my whole life (right up till college, anyhow), and know many, many other people in the same boat. The problem with many homeschoolers is that they’re exposed to so many systems (but rarely forced to function strictly in one for an extended period of time), and they tend to become very adept at seeing a system, figuring out how it works, and putting it to use for them.
This is great in college- I want to learn X, which means I need to take Y classes. I only get financial aid if I actually finish, so I need a major. I want to take Y classes, so I should major in Z.
Unfortunately, work places don’t appreciate that type of attitude, and that got me in hot water more than once. To be fair, though, I’ve never been big on following rules- many (I dare say the vast majority) of my homeschooling friends who went to college actually do really well in the working world.
I think Heinlein had a good start: “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.”
That’s probably not the curricula-type list you may have had in mind, but other than “dance” and “sing” (and probably a few other things), it makes for a nice checklist. Implementation, of course, is left as an exercise for the reader.
I like this list too 🙂
Diplomas show that you have learned to jump through hoops. The higher the degree, the more hoops you’ve jumped through. Diplomas don’t actually say much about what you know. Unfortunately a lot of life is about jumping through hoops.
I agree with this quite a bit. The biggest piece of evidence I see is that all the adults I know that were home schooled, have serious social issues.
I also agree that kids learn best when it is self initiated and encouraged (i.e. the idea behind unschooling). But when taken to the extreme, the child does not get a rounded education because they focus only on the things they like. As with any alternative school it takes good leadership, goals, and values to make it work.
I think the biggest thing is having parents that actively encourage curiosity. This goes for unschooled, homeschooled, or traditionally schooled kids. This means answering ‘why?’ all the time. The answer could be ‘I don’t know, let’s look it up’. This means encouraging them to ask questions. This means finding ways they can explore their interests. Encourage them to look out the window while driving (instead of at the DVD player); have them ask questions about what they see. And so on.
Good Luck
Just because I’m on a roll with stirring shit here- I’m, I think, pretty well adjusted, and I was homeschooled 🙂
I find that part of being “well adjusted” often means not talking about how we learned as kids- how many adults do you know who still consistently talk about highschool? ANYone who’s stuck enough in their childhood to give you a clear idea of how and where they went to school is bound to be a bit off. 😛
I knew typing ‘all the adults I know….’ would get me in trouble. I don’t want to say that homeschooling doesn’t work. It just worries me, a lot. Plus you must be the exception that proves the rule. 😉
I find that part of being “well adjusted” often means not talking about how we learned as kids- how many adults do you know who still consistently talk about highschool? ANYone who’s stuck enough in their childhood to give you a clear idea of how and where they went to school is bound to be a bit off. 😛
I agree that anyone that is stuck in the way you describe is going to be off. Most of the people I know that were homeschooled don’t actually talk about it. I have a couple examples that always come to mind.
Of course the counter argument is my mother in law who lives in her highschool days (or at least tries to) and is a product of public education.
Holy Hell, I can see how you’d be paranoid! And those cases really do exist (as you well know!)
The thing with homeschooling is that a lot of it boils down to why it happens. People who homeschool out of idealistic reasons can really wreak havoc with their kids, because they’re moving toward an objective that has nothing to do with education. In today’s world, however, I find that people rarely homeschool out of laziness, so the vast majority (I won’t say “all” or “99%”, but manymanymany) of parents who choose to homeschool do it because they want to be more involved with their kids and give their kids a better education. People who have the dedication to do it all themselves usually don’t have a huge problem with actually doing that.
Also, homeschooling today has come a LOOOOOONG way from 30 years ago. I’m 28, and when my parents got started there was very little information out there and a lot of fear about legalities. Today, there are several massive networks, plus books, conferences, websites (!!) and loads of other info.
So- not to belittle your concerns, but I don’t think those are insurmountable, or even likely, outcomes.
And the people he is references had fucked up families or much bigger emotional problems. They would not have been fixed by public school, thankyouverymuch.
-Ok, I’ve dated more than person who couldn’t/wouldn’t call when they were going to be late. They all went to high school. Lack of communication is uhm not unique to homeschoolers.
-Uhm, I know several people with full 13 year careers in public school (many of whom you also know) who left college with one class/paper sort of thing left to do. (And the person you are thinking of went to high school anyway and managed that hoop.)
-As a former high school teacher I can tell you that there are a rather frightening number of people who cannot read at all or who barely read and barely write. Being in public school has zero guarantee that a person will learn.
I actually know a lot of people who are obsessed with talking about high school. It gets really old.
Glory Days
Bruce Springsteen
If there’s such a popular song about it, it must not be so uncommon.
Balance a checkbook, plan a budget. Having to ask “want fries with that?” when you’re 70 is not a workable option.
Detect and dissect bullshit. This is a huge topic, sadly, a fair bit of logic, history, and science are prerequisites for doing so effectively. (I *still* remember my high school American Government teacher drawing out the district Castro Valley was in at the time, complete with snarky comments about just who was being included, and just who was being left out, and why. Brilliant.)
Express oneself clearly, and (when desired) effectively.
Yes, that’s pretty much my list.
I think that is a good question that I am struggling to understand myself.
Off the top of my head, and *in my opinion* based on the under-educated college students I attempt to teach:
-People should be prepared to listen effectively to (and think critically about) a deep variety of viewpoints
-People should appreciate the value of hard (especially physical) work and persistence
-People should be encouraged to develop creative solutions to problems
-People should learn how to protect themselves, emotionally and physically
-People should learn how to share and when not to
-People should learn skills about how to focus their attention on specific tasks (e.g. note-taking, studying, listening, reading a book) even when there is not an immediate reward
-People should learn about making budgets for themselves and saving things
-People should be able to identify (and know the difference) between wants, needs, and desires
-people should learn where things (especially food and the basic necessities of life) come from and how they are made
-as a teacher, I think people should be encouraged to learn subjects without so much subconscious reinforcing of the idea that certain things are inherently hard and/or only reserved for certain types of people. I think we need to be supporting people while they find out what things are challenging *for them*
-I think people should be given or taught to find safe spaces to express themselves (e.g. communities, diaries, painting, whatever). They should also learn that some places may be less safe for this and that different behaviors may be expected in different environments
-I think people should learn how to try to develop workable relationships with other people they may not necessarily like
-If at all possible I think it is ideal for people to try to learn two other languages at a young age
-People should learn basic history to provide a context for the world they live in. Most history books are crap so I think history is best learned outside of a classroom. I think history should be taught as the ‘why’ and ‘how’ behind certain modes of thinking and being, and not as a memorization of facts
-People should learn how to cook nutritious meals for themselves. Oh boy do I wish I knew this better myself
-People should learn how to repair at least a few things
-People should learn polite behavior for public places
-people should develop a basic understanding of logic and critical thinking
-people should learn at least enough science to understand how to take care of their own bodies, how plants grow, that bacteria and other tiny things exist that they can’t see without special tools, the life cycles of animals, that resources are finite and that the heart of science lies in exploration and the possibility of being wrong
I’m sure I’m leaving something out. I did just wake up.
This is a most awesome list. Thank you.
Oh! I should also add that there is solid research that says that childhood experiences with nature, science, etc. are MUCH more important for later entrance into ‘STEM’ fields than anything kids learn in a classroom. (STEM=Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics).
In my own life that has been absolutely true: things like science camp, being encouraged to play in the mud, going to museums and hiking and so on…anything that was made to be fun that I could explore at my own pace. These things all gave me such a deeper appreciation for the world around me and made slogging through crappy classes mostly worth it. 🙂
being encouraged to play in the mud
YAY!!!!! Two thumbs up from me on this one.
I’d also add a couple things to this list: chance to get hurt (minor injuries only), chance to explore the world without supervision (walk to school alone, go to the park, walk to 7-11 to blow their allowance on candy….)
Hell yes! Vaccination works for bacteria and for idiocy!
ok…
skipping the whole homeskooling thang
(about which i have very strong feelings)…
Reading. Writing. Arithmetic.
And just these few other, easy things….
Be patient with those who are different. Be happy with themselves in the world. Be diligent when they don’t want to. Be humble about what they’re best at. Be sincere instead of cutting. Have self control when they want to do harm. To do their best when it’s a shit job. Be honest when it’s easy to lie. And, be proud of who they are.
As a life-long home/un/school-at-homer, I’ve got massive opinions on this stuff (most of it fairly open and middle of the road), and quite a bit of experience. So for the most part, I’ll keep this short and sweet, but feel free to hit me with any questions you have.
I can also point you at some good sources, both written and living, that are amazingly helpful.
In short, people need to learn two kinds of things: baseline and specialized. Baseline is what helps you function in this world- reading, writing, basic math, critical thinking, a rough outline of history, general bio/anatomy/physics, etc. Specialized is what we enjoy, what makes us fun at parties, and what determines the jobs we get (think college education): advanced writing, math, science, computer programing, music, etc.
Unschooling tends to do well in the second, because people tend to naturally be attracted toward certain things. Just make sure they get the basics too, and you’ll be ok. Then, go a little above and beyond- if you wanna learn music, you gotta practice. Ok, I know you don’t like physical exercise, but try ballet for a month. First- you can’t specialize if you never get good enough at something to be self-perpetuating, and second everyone needs a shove to try new things.
That is the whole of the philosophy, and rest is conjecture:)
Oh, and don’t be afraid of school. The best home/un/self schoolers I know are the people who are willing to take a class or two in stuff they’re interested in, or to put their kids in a class for stuff they can’t teach themselves.
Unfortunately my mom’s no longer involved with any of the local-ish homeschooling community, after loma prieta died…I don’t have any resources for homeschooling anymore, really.
I, as you know, was homeschooled and I think I’m doing pretty well for myself. I don’t have that problem with corporate culture that other comments are afraid homeschoolers will have – I’ve been at my current company 3 and a half years, had one promotion, survived 4 managers, am working on my second promotion, have seen my salary go up 30%, and am generally both liked and respected, if I go by how often I’m called for questions. No, I don’t especially respect authority, but that’s seemed to be more of a positive than a negative in my life so far – I’ve moved much faster in my career then the coworkers who have trouble asking for things.
Socially I’m not going to claim I’m without issues, but I think those have far more to do with my emotionally abusive father than my homeschooling background, and mostly at this point consist of a refusal to suffer bullshit with a smile and some issues with trust.
Intellectually I’d say the largest skill I got from homeschooling is the belief that I can teach myself anything I want. I may not use that ability as much as I could/should, but believing/knowing on a very basic level that I CAN teach myself is incredibly helpful! In work it translates to being willing to charge at any new area and learn enough to get the job done. Learning how to learn, and not expecting to be spoonfed the material, is one of the major opportunities that can come from homeschooling.
For what basics everyone should learn?
Reading, obviously. If you can inspire a lifelong adoration of books, many other things follow naturally, and even if they don’t love books, being comfortable with reading is a basic tool for learning almost anything else.
I think everyone should learn basic math, through at least algebra and probably statistics. Again, a tool for everything else in life.
The basic building blocks of science – and the scientific method – are important to allow navigation of the world we live in these days. I wish everyone had the basic knowledge to understand the stories thrown at us by the media.
Other than that, I agree with shalyndra’s list, which is awesome.
Hey, lady, I keep forgetting you’re still in my larger social circle. One of these days it’d be great to grab a cuppa and catch up. I’m always intensely curious what happens to my childhood friends:)
from Debs
I think I second this list of basics, and want to add also a basic financial ability– so, like, economics, because we all live and spend in this world and we all pay taxes.
I am a happy product of the public school system, but I went to public school in a upper-middle class neighborhood. So I’ll bite my tongue when I want to add calculus to that list. (A vague memory of calculus is helping me in my modeling course this semester. Stats is also excellent.) I wonder if some of your antipathy about learning in schools would be resolved in private schools? I never remember to ask you this.
*hugs* Debs
Re: from Debs
In order to put my kids in private school I would have to work full time. My entire paycheck would go to school/daycare/extra food costs from eating out. I would be at work 50-70 hours/week. I would be exhausted, grouchy, and bitchy during the time I had to spend with my kids.
Exactly why would this be a good option?
the ability to find out about a topic and present the information coherently to others.
everyone should know something of the past, something of nature,and enough about numbers to have the option to learn more.
beyond that it’s all about what sparks an interest
everyone should learn to read, write, do a form of art (e.g. Paint, dance, sing) and play a sport (e.g. Swim, soccer, rock climb), type,and use a search engine.
oh and my homeschooled little brother and soon-to-be sil are both WAY better at social situations and getting along in a work environment than me. All my tolerance for that school yard BS was used up by my years in school.
in my experience, hs kids have a broader range of taste in literature and are more inclined to learn for the sake of learning. Stuff that only the super smart schooled kids would do.
hmm. well, theoretical radical unschooler here, so take this with a grain of salt, I guess. I actually planned to comment that I didn’t think there was anything that fell into this category for me, but now that I think about it more, I guess there is.
I would say it’s important to learn to communicate with other humans, think up a way of supporting yourself, and do basic household stuff like buying and preparing (as much as necessary) food and so on.
By the way, there has been at least one study suggesting that impartial observers can’t guess which students are homeschooled based on their social skills – maybe I read about it in nurture-shock?
I’m definitely with you on that issue, as another horribly-socialized school graduate.
I’m not opposed to other people doing Radical Unschooling. 🙂 I am simply not the kind of flexible that is required to be a parent of a RU kid.
I agree with a lot of the stuff posted here about what’s important to learn how to do
I’d add (in no particular order, and maybe duplicating a couple of things others have already said, because a whole lot of stuff has been said):
swim without any help for at least 10 minutes nonstop
ride a two wheel bicycle
drive a car WELL
read a map
type
paint
throw a ball
proper use of several common hand woodworking tools
the value of taking good care of one’s stuff, esp. tools
take an at least halfway decent photograph
read sheet music
listen to one’s own gut
organize
plan so things go right
plan in case things go wrong anyway
follow procedures, even if they’re not one’s own, even if they’re not necessarily optimal in some way or another
when to buck procedures and how to do so effectively
approximate, know when that’s good enough, know when it’s not
double check
memorize
experiment
observe
learn
teach
debate
invest, and more generally, delay gratification
give
help
ask for help
accept compliments
accept criticism
accept successes, and learn from them
accept failures, and learn from them
bake
tell a story
tell a joke
present things in front of a large group of relative strangers
when to go to the emergency room
That’s all I can think of right now that seems right when I type it out.
And of course, YMMV
Re: I agree with a lot of the stuff posted here about what’s important to learn how to do
Things on your list I can’t do:
read sheet music
Guess that means I’m mostly competent. 😉
I can’t read sheet music either
I just think it’s a very useful skill I wish I had.
And my list was intended as a supplement to several of the others, which also had great and important stuff in them.
But, yes, even adding these other lists in, I think you’re pretty darn competent.
Now what you seem to be contemplating is how to pass it on, and good for you, I say, to care about it as much as you do.
manage money
I haven’t read all the posts above, but I’m going to contribute hoping this isn’t redundant.
One of the things I see too many adults unable to do is manage money. To understand you need to spend less then you make, that there is a cost for credit, and that making sacrifices today will pay dividends in the future.
We bought a t-shirt for my step sister once that said something like “of course I have money, I still have checks!”. She really used to believe that. Oddly, I can’t remember the last time I wrote a check so maybe that’s a comment on my age too 🙂
My grandmother had to learn to balance a checking account after my grandfather died. She did!
It’s a basic skill that can make a huge difference.