I need to stop ranting at Noah, so here is some of the shit running around in my head that I keep saying over and over and I need to stop saying because I am wearing him out.
I feel like I was set up to hate his mother long before I went to Texas. Noah has told me horror stories for years about what an awful person his mom is and given my own baggage in this area, of *course* I have issues with her. She is abusive, domineering, and autocratic. What is there for me to like? Even given my ingrained bias I went trying really hard to have an open mind. I really did. I tried to be cheerful and friendly and I did not try to pick a fight. Even so, that is exactly what she has accused me of. She said I showed up and was constantly abrasive and looking for a fight. Her characterization of a conversation I had with her is about as different from mine as it could be. I was trying to be playful and funny and she said I was accusing her of being awful and picked a fight. ?! Uhm… ok… No, I’m not passive. No, I’m not quiet. I don’t think that means I am always trying to pick a fight. I told her flat out, “That was not me picking a fight. If you want, I can give you a demonstration of what it looks like when I pick a fight. I don’t think you will like it.” I was feeling kinda… punchy. If me being really really good is still met with anger and nastiness I feel there is little left for me to do.
I have now spoken with his dad on the phone twice since Thanksgiving. The first time he apologized for the inappropriate conversation that happened the night before we left and we talked about how I don’t want more abusive people in my life so I am just not going to deal with his wife. The second time he called me to bitch me out (very gently–he isn’t a forceful man) for sending Noah’s little sister the book The Mists of Avalon. They feel it is inappropriate for me to have done so and I should have checked with them first and gotten permission and by not doing so I am usurping that bitch’s authority. [Cake topper–part of the reason they deemed the book horrible is Noah’s brother doesn’t approve of the book either. When I asked him why he refused to talk about it. He just said hat he doesn’t but it doesn’t matter because it is “Mom’s decision anyway.” They both blame decisions on one another and refuse to talk about why. How mature is that?] Ok, his dad thinks he just called to find out my intentions in sending the book and to let me know that I should never take such an action again without permission.
So the first call was good and the second call was just awful. Me being me, I’ve been obsessing about the second call and trying to figure out how I want to become more ok with it and I wasn’t finding it in my heart to just walk away from it. So I called his mother. I told her that I gave his sister the book because I was trying to share something with her that had been very significant in my life at her age. If she wants to view that as a malicious act that is pathetic and ludicrous. I also told her not to have her husband call and bitch at me anymore. She claims she didn’t, but whatever. We got into quite a conversation that lasted almost 30 minutes. She told me off and I fought back tooth and nail. I will not be another person for her to step on. I told her flat out that I was doing my very best to be polite and friendly until she was being abusive with her daughter and that I just won’t tolerate. She responded in a way that indicated that she knows it is abuse, but “there are reasons for it that make it necessary.” Fuck. That. Noise.
I’m really glad that I told her off. I needed to do that. The more I let someone kick me the more and more pathetic I feel until my self-worth is in the toilet. Telling her that I won’t put up with her shit made me feel much better. I was very good at standing up for myself and not letting her bully me. I wasn’t abrasive though. I wasn’t real nasty I was just extremely firm about my boundaries in that way I am good at defending my boundaries. That was about when she threatened to sue me. Awesome. I still don’t know why. I think this is the last phone call I need to have with anyone in his family. I’m done. They are all willing to continue perpetuating this cycle of abuse and I’m not. Near as I can tell her only reasons for hating me are that I am not willing to let her walk all over me the way she does with everyone else. I’m too loud. I have too many opinions. Yeah? That’s too damn bad.
And I’m feeling a lot of anger that Noah is still in the cycle. That’s my shit though and not something I should be taking out on him. Just because I am willing to cut my family out of my life in order to end those abuse cycles that doesn’t mean I can demand the same thing of everyone else. I do think that when he talks to them I should leave the room or even the house though so I don’t feel like I am listening to it. Silence is consent and all that. I don’t want to force him to make a decision to divorce his family and I can’t really watch him continue to have a relationship with them. So walking away for that bit seems necessary.
It’s all just a big fucking mess. I have finally gotten to a point where I have my family dealt with enough so that things aren’t continually a problem and then I get his family. Fuck.
Huh?
What is wrong with The Mists of Avalon? I’d like to know. (Possible topics include OMGMAGIC=WITCHES=SATAN, Teh Ghey, and… feminism? ::boggles::)
You are taking good steps to minimize damage caused by and to you. Good on ya. I’m worried for the sister left in the mess, though. How old is she?
Re: Huh?
The other possible thing wrong with it is that mom didn’t get the chance to vet it and approve of it.
I don’t know how old the child is. There may be sex or violence or adultery in the book which some parents could consider age inappropriate.
And our hostess is indeed the right kind of standing up for herself, and the right kind of defining her boundaries. She’s pretty keen.
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I asked her about it at Thanksgiving but she didn’t realize I was serious about giving it to the kiddo. I asked if some brief mentions of sex were a problem and she said no.
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Then yeah, I’d say that the facts that you were somehow involved and that she didn’t have complete control over the transaction are reasons one and two for the freakout.
But I’m an ass. And I have Opinions.
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Oh, there is definitely loads of stuff for her to find objectionable in there. While I never had the pleasure of meeting or speaking w/Noah’s mom, I got the distinct impression she was a force to be reckoned with and had Views on things. I think both the book’s content (including the cover art) and the fact she wasn’t consulted in its purchase contributed to her reaction.
Re: Huh?
The other possible thing wrong with it is that mom didn’t get the chance to vet it and approve of it.
::blinkblink::
Wow. I’m glad I didn’t grow up like that. I mean, my mom’s nuts, but not THAT nuts.
I suppose I had a liberal upbrigning. We were allowed to read whatever we could find, and encouraged to ask questions about thing — words, concepts — we didn’t understand. I consider appropriateness of gifts for othe rpeople’s children, but I never even considered letting parents have previews of fiction.
And, IIRC (I re-read the thing in the last few months), there are some oblique references to sex — nothing graphic — as well as some mild violence and, yes, adultery. Also religious and philosophical arguments. Just like the Bible. (Dunno if Noah’s mom is coming from this angle or not.) I think 11 should be up to that. (I was probably 12 or 13 myself,.
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Part of my thing is, I don’t think there is a problem with giving her the book. If she doesn’t feel she is up for it right now it isn’t going to hurt my feelings if it sits on a shelf for a while.
But I grew up in a ridiculously liberal household for such things. I read anything I wanted. I was reading Jude Deveraux and Betrice Small when I was 9 and they are out and out porn.
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My parents were the same way. If it was words on a page, they were happy I was reading it. Period.
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Pretty much the same here — books good, their general attitude was also that if I was old enough to understand it it was pointless to keep it away from me, and if I didn’t understand it odds are I would find it boreing and walk away on my own accord. But then again my parents were of the attitude that the best way to protect your kids is to prepare and arm them, not to shelter them.
I think if my mom were alive today and read that book, she wouldn’t get it, my dad would and could discuss it with me but my mom would most likely be put off by more than a little of it.
Re: Huh?
She is 11. Which is about how old I was when I first read it.
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Well, FWIW, I was going to give “Mists of Avalon” to my younger son when he was about that age, and was told by my older son that he thought it was too much. I’ve never read it myself, and my older son’s judgment tends to be sound, so I held off. Just a piece of evidence that one reasonable mind found it to be too advanced for a reasonably bright and open-minded 11-year-old…
Re: Huh?
Reason falls within the normal bounds of our perceptions and philosophies. To say that one man finds something to be of reason, simply means that they have thoughts on the matter. The underlying philosophy that treats children as mental and emotional retards till some magical number of rotations around the sun is at the root of this sort of logic.
Not saying you should or shouldn’t do something. Just hard for me to see this sort of logic as anything other than frightening.
T.
Re: Huh?
There’s a difference between allowing a child to read something, and giving it to them to read.
To take an extreme example, let’s use porn. If I found that one of my kids — back in the days when they *were* kids; they’re now older than several of the people posting to this blog — had obtained some porn, I would not take it away, although I might have a talk with him about it. (This is not conjecture; I actually did this a couple of times.) OTOH, for me to give the porn to the child, with the implicit “I want you to read this,” would be a very weird blurring of sexual boundaries.
Since I haven’t read the book in question, I don’t know what there was in it that led Miles to think that it was too advanced for Ben. But I can think of worse ways to choose a book for a child than by the judgment of another child.
And, yes, children *are* “mental and emotional retards” in many ways. Their brains aren’t developed yet, they haven’t had many experiences, and they are physically and legally less powerful than adults. They need and deserve the protection of adults. Obviously, chronological age isn’t a very good predictor for how advanced a given child might be — I’ve known extremely mature 12-year-olds and extremely immature 25-year-olds — but it’s the best we’ve got.
I present the story simply as an example of how a reasonable mind might conclude that “Mists” is inappropriate for an 11-year-old.
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As always I appreciate your precise diction and word choice. I do not have a problem with the concept that a given book is appropriate or inappropriate for a child at whatever age and that the level of appropriateness will vary greatly.
For example, when I was 9 my aunt decided to give me Vanity Fair. I looked the book over and was quite daunted at first just by the sheer size. I gave it a shot though and decided I wasn’t ready for it. I put the book on a shelf and moved it all over the state for 7 years before I read it. I think that was a perfectly acceptable way for me to handle deciding for myself what was and wasn’t appropriate for me.
I am not saying that I think your attitudes or actions were/are wrong, because I don’t. Just that I have had a different experience of the level of protection that a child needs.
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I tend to agree, mysts is a book I didn’t read till I was in college. I knew of it but it didn’t appeal to me until after I had been ‘subverted’ by a freshman year exposure to the SCA and pagenism, etc. Until then it was a lot of mumbo jumbo for me. I’m not sure I would give it to an an 11 year old to read, but if they stumbled across it themselves that would make me happy. I’d more likely turn an 11 year old to Jane Eyre, and even then I would expect them to find the first part of the book when jane was their age far more interesting than the later bits — cause thats how I felt about it before I was in my 20’s and could acutally appreciate how twisted it was towards the end.
Also I’m betting his family is a bit more conservative than they like to believe they are, and that book would kind of challange that point especially when given to one so young. Its sort of a feminist Catcher in the rye
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Actually I”m misremembering, the book came out in 82, I graduated highschool in 83, it was a huge hit and everyone said I shold read it but I didn’t get around to it till like 84 maybe, again because it as an idea didn’t appeal. I think I read it after reading Le Morte d’Arthur in college.
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Fundamentally different veiws of children may be at the root of our differeing opinions.
I’m mostly sane, and I once thought it was reasonable to shoot at hungry people in somalia…because they were not obeying the comands being issued to them in a language they did not understand.
The logic is inherently flawed, but it seemed reasonable at the time.
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Have you raised children? I’m curious to know how this philosophy works out in practice.
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Which philosophy? And I’ve only raised children as a secondary caregiver, never as a primary or final responsible personage.
I don’t disagree with your choice (deciding to not give a particular piece of material to a child), I simply find the way in which you stated that you came to that decision to be frightening. Not wrong, just plain scary to me.
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It is *not* wrong to want to control a child’s experience of the world. That’s how cultures are passed along. That’s how parents’ moral structures are shared.
But that’s not what Noah’s mom is doing, here. She’s trying to control an entire family and all of its interactions – including people’s interactions with each other, where she is not involved. And it will never end unless she does an awful lot of therapy, and she has no motivation for that. Which means that the only thing everyone else can do is protect themselves against her.
(I highly recommend Carolyn Hax’s advice column “Tell Me About It”. It addresses this kind of issue a fair amount. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/03/24/LI2005032402809.html
Re: Huh?
When we apply the conversation of *wrong* and *right* to logic we have already left the realm of logic. We all make choices, many of the day to day choices you and I make would be deemed *wrong* by people of other cultures and backgrounds.
I agree with you that parents should have the right, in the day and age we live in, to guide thier children to the type of information that they want them exposed to, I know I tend to be a bit more liberal of mind when determining what I will or won’t allow children of mine to be exposed to. Though I find your wording around “control a child’s experience” difficult, I don’t inherently disagree with the concept.
My original statement was not about right and wrong, I was simply sharing that I find that particular brand of logic frightening. Not everything that I find frightening is wrong, or right in my world veiw.
Hmmm….I’ll get off the soapbox…
T.
may i make some old geezer noise?
the younger me spent tremendous amounts of time/energy defending the way i lived and what i believed.
i was adamant and determined and i railed against those i thought should be improved.
i mean, i really, really railed…
the net result?
zip.
i never made an impression against those i was fighting. i never converted a single soul to my way of thinking. i never did anything but waste precious energy i could have invested in my life and my love.
and so, i decided to let others be as big a fucktard as they wanted. i never applied a “hooray, i’m a door-mat” policy, but neither would i champion my point of view.
i refused to argue and simply got up and left when anybody tried to engage me in hostility. people knew how i felt and that was that. and pretty soon they stopped bothering me.
(like Jimmy Stewart in “Harvey.”)
over the years, most of those who were bad to me have died and (i sincerely hope) gone to rot and roast in a blazingly painful hell.
the rest of them, i plan on seeing buried and then smiling at their graves. i do go visit them, y’know. living well is it’s own best reward.
i’ve even had a few come back to me an apologize for the way they treated me.
may i suggest?
maintain a positive relationship with your niece since she’s going to need an example of how people should live. like it or not, her mom is in charge of the girl’s life for the next few years.
your father-in-law is stuck in the boat with his wife. he may be sticking around to be sure the kidlings aren’t overly crunched by their mom. i’m gonna guess he sees and agree with your point of view but is in no position to side with you ’cause the more shit that gets stirred up the more he (and your niece) gotta chow down on it.
your brother-in-law is “the good son” and that’s a losing battle right there.
also, and gently, having fairly young children, i certainly wish to have any even sorta maybe questionable material passed by their mom or me.
i mean, even though they’re 14 we still, to a very mild extent, screen what books they read or vidjoe games they play.
that’s part of being a responsible parent.
that being said, i wouldn’t toss a hissy fit if you didn’t realize and by-passed us the first time thru. i’d ask, politely, that you keep us in mind next time.
if i can add…
be kind to your sweetheart on the matter. he knows ‘way more than you what his mom’s like, even if he doesn’t seem to, and being caught between the two of you is, without a doubt, very painful for him.
might he agree to go visiting them alone with the understanding that you are *not* a topic of family conversation?
It has already been agreed to that I will not be visiting them again and it is still up in the air if he is going or not, but he probably will do so. I don’t know how to enforce me not being a topic of conversation.
I’m listening to your words and thinking about them. I know that you are right about a lot of this, probably most, maybe all–that doesn’t mean I am ready to admit that yet. Thank you for sharing.
You can work with him – role-play how to end or avoid conversations that he doesn’t want to participate in. (It’s amazing how many people don’t know how to end or deflect a conversation, which is why they feel trapped and end up saying stuff they wish they hadn’t.)
“Not hearing” is a very powerful tool. “Mishearing” is also good. That’s when someone asked how much your house cost, and you reply with how much you like the drapes.
If you should happen to ever visit there again, I suggest that you try to spend time with m-i-l OUTSIDE the house. Get her on neutral territory and she might (*might*) be more bearable.
At the moment it’s a goal for *not* to visit again — at the very least, not to be within speaking distance of my mother. I really don’t think that neutral territory or other aids to communication will help – I believe that clearer communication will only help each side to dislike the other more, because I believe both people have fine reasons for feeling that way.
It sucks that you’re having to deal with family crap. She threatened to *sue* you? That’s an amazing, desperate act.
(I’m so glad my sisters and uncles were on their best behavior when Anthony & his parents were in Iowa for the wedding reception…)
I haven’t read The Mists of Avalon.
I did see the HBO movie of it, though. I clearly recall Arthur had incestuous sex with his half-sister in a pagan ritual, and the result was Mordred.
If Noah’s mother saw or heard of the movie, maybe that was her objection.
I know some things I read at middle school age scandalized some people – and I read a number of things that weren’t familiar enough to scandalize people. I realize now that many books contained things I didn’t understand, and I just let them sweep past me while I took in the parts of the story accessible to me at the time. That works better with books than with movies…
The mom has never heard anything about the book and hasn’t a clue. The brother has strong dislike of it and feels it is inappropriate, but won’t talk to me about why.
I have a hard time with something being deemed inappropriate and then the conversation is shut down. That just goes beyond what I think is ok.
Incest, threesome, rape… oh man, I was titillated and I was in high school (well, maybe junior high).
I read it around that age (10 or 11). I got it off of my mother’s bookshelf. The only thing she really tried to shelter me from was the Earth’s Children series. She thought the first book, Clan of the Cavebear, was okay (I read it when I was 9 and coincidentally at the same time the local high school district banned it) but the others were too pornographic. I read them anyway.
And for the record, I grew up in a very catholic household, not a very liberal one.
Appropos of nothing, as I’m reading this, the iPod randomly chose for me to listen to “Kyle’s Mom is a Bitch” from the South Park soundtrack.
Synchronicity.
Of course, now it’s playing the Butthole Surfers cover of the “Underdog” theme, so I don’t know what to make of that.
Good luck. Have a kitty-playing icon.