This may offend you. I’m kind of rambling and trying to figure out my own judgments about a bunch of different societal things around weight. If you think you are likely to be offended, just don’t read it–please.
I went to BaGG last night. It happened to be the night of the Miss Bondage-A-Go-Go contest. The contest was so rigged it was pathetic, but it was rigged in some interesting ways. It was completely a popularity contest and the title went to the DJ who has been working there for a while. I’ll skip my rant about how an employee shouldn’t have been allowed to enter. Other than that the final four contestants consisted of one of the nightly go-go dancers (see, another fucking employee) who was skinny as a rail, a girl who works at Madame S (who always gets mad that I don’t really have a clue who she is cause she always talks to me like we are buddies) and she has a pretty normal/average body build–neither heavy nor thin, and a much heavier girl wearing a body harness made of rope who seemed to have absolutely none of what the contest was looking for–she couldn’t dance worth shit and her “presentation” for judging was randomly walking across the stage looking awkward. Oh, the DJ is a somewhat heavy woman–my guess would be that she wears about a 16/18 by looking. I didn’t notice how many chips were given to whom but these four were not who I would have picked out of the 12 original contestants at all for a variety of reasons.
Ok, the part that is made me think was that during the presentations of the original 12 the skinny women got very little audience reaction unless they are otherwise extremely popular (the most popular go-go dancer but she is heavily scarred/very ‘different’ looking). Most of the heavier woman (probably size 12 ranging up to about 16/18) got a fair bit of reaction if they in any way played to the audience. I was standing next to a chick I know and we were being remarkably, and most likely rudely, catty about the women and their performances and looks. So I got to thinking.
I am incredibly biased against thin women, and men for that matter. I have fairly loudly said that I have no interest in someone if I can count their ribs or that it takes an incredible personality for me to be able to overlook being able to count someone’s ribs. This is something that has noticeably affected a few friendships I have with very thin people. I have been incredibly insensitive to their feelings and I have largely brushed it off because society in general favors the thin. But then I hate myself for being heavy.
I have been fairly heavy in the past. I was up to more than 200 lbs when I went to Weight Watchers and I lost 50 lbs. My weight has fluctuated since then. I have been as low as 145 and no higher than 170 since the trip to WW. These days I tend to feel pretty unhappy about myself if I am over about 162 and I like to be flirting with 158ish a lot more. It takes a fair bit of notice and conscious choice in regards to food for me to stay down at that range and I need to be visiting the gym pretty regularly. For my body if I am being very conscious in my eating and visiting the gym when I am under 162 I am wearing a size 10. I’ve not been careful lately so I’m wearing a size 12 and feeling very… less than thrilled about it. I’m also not feeling very motivated to do anything about weighing less.
Last night at some point as my dancing companion was saying, “Wow–she has no ass, how sad for her,” I found myself agreeing without really thinking about my words. If she had said something rude or deprecating about one of the heavy women I would have turned on her and ripped her head off. I didn’t think about my bias or inappropriate behavior at all before then. I’ve had conversations with a few of the more slender women on my friends-list and they have indicated that I have been rude but I have brushed them off. Wow, I’ve been pretty awful.
I am a horrible hypocrite. I can see where a lot of the bias comes from, but that doesn’t ameliorate the fact that I need to change it. I tell heavy women that they should love their bodies, but I hate my own body when I am heavy. I tell thin women that they should loathe their bodies whilst aspiring to look more like them. I’m trying to figure out how much of this is based on my own general self-loathing being projected out on the people around me. The interesting thing is, despite my own negative feelings about being heavy I am very accepting of other people being heavy. Not sure how that works. Maybe my awful attitude just springs from jealousy. I know I am incredibly insecure when I am compared to anyone who is thin. I assume that they must be more attractive than I am even though I compare my attractiveness with heavy women based on a variety of factors. Maybe I put thin women down because I am praying that my nastiness will convince other people that being thin should not be the trumping factor in deciding beauty. I realize the faultiness of this logic.
Ok. On the list of things to work on–no more nasty comments about people who are thin. No more being a bitch because I am jealous. Still working hard on that loving myself thing. For one thing, I am lying to myself and those around me when I say that thin people just aren’t attractive. I am not instinctively as attracted to people who are thin, but there are certainly thin people I find incredibly attractive. I don’t go around bashing the hell out of groups I am less attracted to in general though. For example I don’t think I have ever said anything nasty about Sissy Maids (if you don’t know what a Sissy Maid is–don’t worry about it) even though that really isn’t my thing.
An increased level of being positive can only help me. One more thing to try to be positive about. Catty can be funny, but it hurts people and that really isn’t funny.
There’s thin, and too thin. If you can count the ribs and see the spine, make nasty comments. If they’re 24 and carrying above 40/50 extra pounds and their knees are already starting to disintegrate under the strain, ditto. Its about trying to stay in the healthy zone.
As to lack of an ass, I know any number of very fat girls with no ass and I feel sorry for them. But thats a matter of taste not health. Me I can be 10 lb’s under and I’ll still have an ass so huge that folks who either do or don’t like fat will asume its fat, when it may or may not be. And black men and hispanic men will happily follow me down the street.
Just to give you an idea of how wacked this can get: I actually had one Israeli guy who had always thought I had an offensively large ass sit behind me when I was 125 lb (he’d only ever known me that weight, and I had 6 pack stomach at the time and often wore cloths to show that off, as well as an ass so hard that guy who slapped it complained about having hit rock), and he commented afterwards that he owed me an appology cause when he read my pant size he realized I was wearing a 27/30 and that he’d been thinking I was fat, and he was sorry. (THIS WAS WHEN I HAD THE 6 PACK TUMMY!!!) So ass size really isn’t an aspect of fat, its body shape.
Also feel free to ridicule folks like me who try to stay in the healthy zone but don’t get near enough exercise… if you can’t walk a flight of stairs without panting its also a problem
No chica, you are missing the point. I shouldn’t be nasty about anyone. It’s not really my place to make those kinds of judgments. If they are a friend and I worry about their health I would probably say something, but I don’t have the right to sit back with my friends and be a bitch. It’s hard though. It’s such a societally approved activity.
Bingo. Healthy human bodies are all beautiful, and unhealthy ones deserve sympathy, not scorn.
Don’t know that I agree. Anything that results in a social cost is open to public judgment and its being liberal to a fault to say its not. You can’t be upset that you face public disapproval and then expect medicare, medicaid, or even insurance (the rising cost of insurance for the rest of us) to then foot your health bills.
I think we have proven, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that there are many things about which we do not agree.
I agree with this sentiment as stated (“You can’t be upset that you face public disapproval and then expect medicare, medicaid, or even insurance (the rising cost of insurance for the rest of us) to then foot your health bills.”).
Except, of course, that there is no way to *prevent* insurance from footing the health bills, short of refusing to get insurance (which is ruinous for other reasons, many to do with collective bargaining).
So the problem is, you’re saying, “we’ve provided you this set of services. Being ungrateful about them isn’t an option. Also, you can’t opt out of them. So be grateful to me for these things you didn’t ask for.”
Not shockingly, and I have some issues with such an attitude, on principle.
Nope thats not what I’m saying.
What I’m saying is society as a whole has for a complex set of reasons decided certain choices are not conducive to the welfare of the group. The group then through peer pressure tries to make individuals to conform to the believed group interest. If you choose to reject social pressures to conform to the perceived best interest of the group, then you can’t turn around and expect the group to then be supportive of you when their conceptions of why that was a bad choice in the first place come to be.
I would strongly argue that the social rejection of fat people (where it occurs) isn’t really health-based. Many other folks are accepted despite significant health problems being associated with their professions/decisions, and aren’t generally looked down on when, say, their profession in gymnastics suddenly causes them to have to deal with a very large number of stress fractures for four or five decades.
Yah, cause shame and judgment are what the world needs more of! Yah, go shame! Shame will fix everything.
Sure it will.
Just in case you can’t tell I’m being very sarcastic. Shame does not promote health in anyone. If it did, no one would ever be a druggie, a junkie, a fatty, a too skinny, whatever.
In fact the presence of shame and judgment perpetuate over eating, starving, over drinking, over drugging. Shame and judgment hurt so much that all these things just become medicine to attempt to salve the wounds it inflicts.
Positive change comes from love.
The most judgmental people I’ve ever known used it to shore up their own self esteem which usually lay in ruins underneath a veneer of baseless pride.
Lovingkindness is the most attractive quality on earth.
I have a strong personal appreciation for your response. I look forward to seeing you next week. *hugs*
🙂 Likewise. Thank you friend.
Oh and this is for you: jaguarnoelle at hotmail dot com.
Damn skippy. Motorcyclists, people who drink alcohol, and the promiscuous should be ridiculed whenever they step outside.
Don’t know if I agree about the promiscuous… condoms, dental dams, etc….
but teasing folks who drink and drive… yah I’m game
His satire wasn’t so much aimed at drunk drivers as any drunks and any motorcycle-riders. And even the very careful promiscuous are still taking more risks than the non-promiscuous, particularly when we’re talking about medical expenses. Even their preventative medicine tends to be more costly (because they bother to do it).
Yeah, my going to see a gynecologist 4 times a year is probably more costly than whatever impact my extra 20 lbs has on my health.
Michael was not talking about drinking and driving. He was talking about the fact that I have alcohol in my home. That is something that huge sections of society believes I should not do. And my favorite societal taboo lately–swearing! Oh my god! I say the “F” word! And I should be treated horribly because I do because it is so bad for people to hear it… cause it impacts them by… and it… oh wait. It’s just another fucking word.
Hardly offensive and actually very much on point. Good thoughts to have and to understand
Nothing offensive there.
I think journeys into ones own thought process are very healthy. And identifying things you want to work on in yourself is admirable. I myself am heavy. But, you know that. I like how I am for the most part, but do still tend to identify with and have more sympathy for heavier people than skinny. I work hard on fighting that, but it’s still there.
I wish you luck in your internal reorganization of thoughts.
btw, I think you are pretty darn hot in all your size ranges. It’s not your size that makes you hot.
I’m glad I read this. I’ve been thinking kind of the same thing for myself: that I need to watch myself to see when I’m engaging in size prejudice against thin people, and change my behavior when I am. Because it’s just not OK, in the same way that sexism against men or racism against white people is totally not OK.
wow. this was not the direction I expected this entry to take.
*nods*
I haven’t examined my bias too much cos I spend so much time hacking my way through the thicket in my head… somehow I seem to have (mostly) learned how not to put people down for their size being larger or smaller than me… largely cos I’m just involved in my own issues and can release attachment (again mostly) to thinking-worrying-comparing to others… I have one friend who’s a real string bean and I know when she gets stressed she stops eating. plus she has a heart condition, IIRC, which is exacerbated by that. So I can have some empathy for the skinny (but not always… especially if I don’t know them…)
Jeff’s dating a lady who’s heavier than me, significantly so. She’s also more centered & less worrisome to my psyche than his previous partner used to be, and she’s less demanding.
I habitually hang with ladies my size and larger, recently. Not so much with the smaller ladies. I’m finding it hard to find motivation to try and get fitter (though D is certainly making an effort as is K, I could take a page from them…
I love my body and am grateful for its general health but I’m not very strong. I worry that being positive about it sabotages my efforts to improve my fitness level. Weird, that.
need to think more about this.
“I worry that being positive about it sabotages my efforts to improve my fitness level. Weird, that.”
I’ve worried the exact same thing. But I suspect it’s probably the opposite. Love and kind regard is good for the body like it’s good for the soul.
yes. good for the body and good for the soul.
and once we can integrate mind with body, body with soul, and mind with soul, maybe we’ll be strong enough to do what we know is the healthiest thing for us, the thing that will permit us to continue growing stronger, and to cope with everything life throws at us, and to love as hard and thoroughly as we possibly can.
the habit of mind-body separation has been the hardest part for me to unlearn. So often, my body has just been a brain-carrying-case. I’m working on living HERE, where I am, so that I can figure out how to get to where I want and need to be.
and I practice loving my life as often as possible, so I can realize life can be good no matter what shape or size I am in.
I was just thinking about this again today.
Thank you for reflecting on this within yourself.
Up until about 6 years ago you could count my ribs. Not because I didn’t eat…I did eat. I could eat anything and still not gain weight. And I would listen to people call me skinny like I was some sort of gross freak, dismissed as some that couldn’t possibly have body issues. It made me feel horrible about myself…and when men would whistle or make comments while I was walking down the road, I didn’t feel any better. I wanted to cover myself from head to toe and not let people see me. Ashamed.
Why is it that the girl in the cube next to me can gripe about how airplane seats are made for skinny people but if I were to make a comment about about how the company shirt I received was made for a fat person, I would be the one in the wrong?
A bias against small people is just as sad as a bias against large people. You don’t know why they are the size that the have become. And making fun of or putting down anyone for any reason…doesn’t help their esteem as they grow within themselves, or you either.
Even though you find yourself practicing one of the things I can’t stand…Skinny Bashing…
I still adore you. why? Because you are always striving to learn.
Thank you sweetheart. Women like you are part of the reason I understand more personally why what I am doing is wrong. Thank you for not hating me.
brehen’s response resonates with me. I don’t consider myself thin anymore, but for a long time (very long time) did fall into that skinny category.
And yeah, I was bashed.
But, rightkindofme, did you know you’re the only person who’s made any empathic reply when I’m sitting in my crap about my tummy fat?
I love that you’re examining this bias. More than examining it, you’re taking steps to change it. Do you know how awesome that is? Go you!
My ideal, both for myself and for others is more in the middle. I don’t think I’ve said anything catty on the basis of body size, (shape, or color), in decades although I do still have moments of catty thoughts. For me, those thoughts are almost universally a reflection of my feelings about my own fitness.
I’ll do my best to help you remember 🙂
While there are skinny people I find attractive, the correlation mostly goes the other way for me. I tend to like heavier girls. This is, of course, not news to you. But I’ll echo and say that mostly “hot” doesn’t mean some specific size. “Hot” isn’t something easily checked with a yardstick or measuring tape.
I, uh, I kind of have this problem too, although it’s of a different flavor (obviously, we are different people). I just find myself making catty comments, silently or no, about nearly everyone I come across. Of course, I would never say anything to someone’s face (unless the circumstances were such that a catty comment could be said and easily brushed aside as the ridiculous thing it is) because that’s a dick thing to do and I try not to be a dick. But yeah, I find some of the things that exit my mouth to just be incredibly catty and rude and judgmental and it’s like, “what the hell, did I seriously just say that, what is wrong with me?”
I think it’s especially bad sometimes because sometimes it is only that automated “you should feel bad about saying that” response that disagrees with what I’ve said in my head – meaning that there’s a large part of me that actually believes what’s just been said and sees nothing wrong with holding such a view. I wish I could figure out where those impulses come from. For instance, I could be sitting eating lunch, and these girls walk by, and my brain just goes “neither one of you has any brains whatsoever besides what hideous H&M shirt-dress to buy tomorrow, you’re terrible in bed but think you’re hot stuff, you think being thin is vital but at the same time you’re going to keep hanging out with your pudgy friend with the flat chest and not-well-covered-with-a-mini-babydoll muffin top (what a horrible phrase), and OH you are not a real blonde either nor will it ever in your entire life look good on you so just stop with the charade right now you nouveau riche OC wannabe moron.” What did these girls ever do to me? And yet shit like that just pours out of my brain, like, every day.
I guess what I’m saying is I sympathize with you. I’m not sure how to stop such thoughts. I suppose being nicer to myself, taking better care of myself, and lowering my own expectations might be a decent way of going about it.
If it helps I have never thought anything nasty like that about you. :}
Despite my normal rampant paranoia, I have never actually worried about you thinking nasty things about me.
I do the same sort of general cattiness occasionally. I do think it is about something I should deal with on a personal level. I am not projecting that you have to do the same. 🙂
Wow, you opened a real can of worms there! Kudos to you! 😉
I haven’t read most of the comments, so this might be a double-up, but wth, here goes.
1) props to you for realizing that! It takes a lot of brains to notice and a lot of balls to say it.
2) having an ass is, I think, largely a factor of developing the muscles rather than being directly weight-related. To a large degree, a bit of extra body fat helps, but if there isn’t any superstructure beneath it, it doesn’t do anything. I know some skinny people with amazing tushes, and some heavier people who have nothing. This completely ties in to…
3) I think weight has a lot more to do with being in a comfortable range than heavy/light/whatever. Personally, I find that the most atractive people are those who don’t go to enormous lengths to change their body, i.e. that don’t starve themselves or constantly over-eat without exercise. Some people are naturally heavier, and if they get down to a size substantially smaller than what they would naturally be, they look… odd. Likewise, if someone has a certain amount of extra weight on them, it’s going to be a lot more noticeable on someone who is naturally light-boned and lightly muscled, and isn’t going to “sit” as well.
Ok, end commentary.
It’s interesting you post this now. I have a lot of similar thoughts, issues. Although I don’t actually bash on thin people.
Except, I do remember discussing a certain friend with another person and we agreed she was “too thin”. I’d never say that about a fat person. It’s their business in both cases.
And yes, I’d like to be thinner and yes, I’m very accepting of bodies that are larger than mine and yes I feel envious and inadequate in the presence of smaller bodies. In fact I have a very small friend (who also possesses more energy than I) that I tend to feel shy around cause she possesses no cellulite at all. I went to the beach with her recently, noticed she’d gained a little weight (still no cellulite) and felt instantly relieved.
I noticed that and kinda sighed at myself.
Last summer my weight climbed to 172 and I was pretty much horrified. Somehow some of it came off again during school but only recently I checked and I was 165. I’d love to wear 10 pounds less fat. It’s been stressing me out. The last time I was 145 I was on the atkins diet and that lasted a brief second or two.
I was hanging out with a friend the other day who is closer to 300. I think she’s cute but she wants to lose weight and talked extensively about it. I kept my own mouth shut about my own body dysphoria for the most part but let a word or two slip of it and her face closed. Later she’s told me that she is trying to have more compassion for thinner people. Honestly it hurt when her face closed.
Being in a body that doesn’t feel expressive of ones self or worse feels like a negative comment on oneself, a body that doesn’t feel pretty or graceful or healthy, despite it’s relative grace, beauty and health to other bodies is painful.
It’s a matter of how it feels. Why does a certain condition feel a certain way? I’ve no idea. Thoughts and their insidious influence, I suppose.
This video explains a certain something that I’d like:
I’d like to love my body always. That would be wonderful.
Thanks for talking babe. It’s good to hear your thoughts.
My li’l brother (not actually related) is rail thin. He doesn’t have a spare ounce of anything on him, and he’s reasonably tall. He constantly gets ribbed about how he needs to eat more and that he should be on a steady diet of cheese cakes and one day I realized that if people were telling me I need to eat less, that I should only ever eat carrot sticks I would -die-. I would be utterly mortified and could probably never take another bite of anything in public ever again.
But I tend to look at skinny women with disdain anyways, especially if they’re pretty ’cause you know pretty, skinny women all have personalities like Paris Hilton and should be scorned. *sigh* it’s no better than the other way – worse perhaps because I should know better. I -know- how much it hurts to be judged harshly so I shouldn’t do it to other people.
I love you.
Something to think about.
you know…
I never thought about that until I was at a burlesque performance with Daxle, and I made a side comment how I was amused when thin dancers wear pasties and twirl them but had no breasts underneath… I asked what the point was?
I didn’t think about how that would sound to her, but we got into a long discussion about it and I learned a lot. Things I thought were easy just cause you were thin weren’t- she had just as hard a time finding pants as I did, because her body fit awkwardly into sizes too, just in the other direction. She gets teased far more often than I do for her size, and she eats a lot. Yup, you can see her ribs, and she feels about as self conscious about that as I do about my tummy.
My friend growing up was 5’5″ and about 90 lbs soaking wet. But she, too, ate a ton and just never gained weight. I thought back and remembered how people would tell her that was was too thin and would poke and prod her to see if they could feel her bones.
After that, I realized everyone gets teased and everyone feels awkward about their bodies. 🙂