For a while now I have felt that I will not support the Citadel by going to parties or playing there because the favortism and attitudes that the owners have towards their little pets. I went to classes periodically because that was the only place to see those classes. I have decided that I am better off missing those events. I won’t give that space one more dollar of my money. I have no respect for the way it is being run, for the gossip, for the bullshit posturing, for the ridiculous ass-kissing, for any of it really. I want nothing to do with the space in any way. They repeatedly delete all threads that specifically list complaints with how the space is being run and then say, “Well, why don’t you volunteer if you want things to be different!” Because volunteering there does nothing to change the system. The well is poisoned from the very top and that can’t/won’t be fixed by volunteering. Instead, I will vote with my feet and my wallet.
I’ve been around long enough to know that I just need to be patient. This space will go away eventually.
I think the incident which soured me on the Citadel was related to one of the owner’s special friends, too.
If you hadn’t gotten to the point you’re at, I’d suggest starting an independent citadel discussion tribe, so the owners couldn’t delete posts or threads. But that’s probably not worth bothering with anymore.
Unless memory is failing me completely, your situation was mostly due to an individual who was subsequently banned from DMing at SFCitadel, for situations just like yours, and so hasn’t been around for quite awhile. But again, lack of sleep, high stress … memory may be leaky.
Having said peson working the front door when I came back months later does not engender happy feelings.
Danaoshee’s comment was worth reading, because I think that she’s right that many volunteer groups hvve the sam sorts of issues.
“Having said person working the front door …”
I understand. It took awhile, but I think we finally got the message across that he shouldn’t be doing that, either. Unfortunately, as with all volunteer situations, sometimes you feel like you’ll take what you can get, and it’s hard to remember that just because some people *will* volunteer, it doesn’t mean they *should*. Janus has some of the same difficulties — not enough bodies, at times, so you go with what you’ve got. Our Outreach people took a different approach at Pride this year, because they decided it would be better to be alone in the booth without help if they had to, than to have dour unwelcoming people sitting there as the “face of Janus”.
I, too, was very sorry to see the independent forum disappear. :\. We lost a very important community resource that day.
I haven’t gotten involved enough with anything to be able to notice anything on a level past “Some of the parties are fun”, but I think your description, without the specifics, sums up my general observations on community behavior around volunteering. (Not just bdsm community, most communities.)
Sometimes I feel guilty about my general avoidance of anything done as a volunteer, but I watch so much really messed up behavior around it all (whether it’s scifi cons, or rocky, or various “serious organizations” my mom’s been involved with) that I just would never want to inflict on myself.
A major aspect of it is summed up by the “Well, why don’t you volunteer if you want things to be different!” attitude – it comes with a very strong feeling that any judgement from a non-involved party (and that includes customers!) is invalid, which for anything that involves people paying money is just beyond messed up. (and does NOTHING for the organization’s ability to continue existence.)
I also observe a lot of attitude that looks a lot like “our volunteers should be GRATEFUL we’re letting them help!” This behavior frequently goes along with expecting established volunteers to put more time, effort, and/or money into the volunteer project then most jobs would expect, while getting nothing except that warm feeling – and when those expectations aren’t met, throwing gigantic guilt trips.
The thing that consistently amazes me is the amount so many people are willing to buy into this mindset – and like any bizzare collective fantasy, once converted people tend to get fairly rabid about enforcing these views outwards. The most disturbing parts of these attitudes tend to revolve around any situation where a very few people are making some amount of money off of a large contingent of volunteers or near-volunteers. (Near volunteers defined as: Here, have this token of appreciation that usually comes nowhere near minimum wage equivalent.)
Unfortunately, it seems to be human nature, because I’ve pretty much never seen anything with a bunch of volunteers that completely avoids the problems.
I’ve put way too much thought into all this.
>> The thing that consistently amazes me is the amount so many people are willing to buy into this mindset <<
And as part of this, so many people also seem to think that if you’re not spending every spare evening you have in the place, you are somehow not supporting it, either.
That makes me sad. Now that my schedule is more normal, I was looking at the classes and activities at the Citadel. But I’m not really interested in BD/SM High School.
I haven’t had these kinds of problems at Edges. I am wary of SMOdyssey though…
I will have to look into this, then. I appreciate your wisdom and experience.
Edges hosts a number of classes on their own, and it’s a good space for other groups to do demos/classes.
And regardless of how much I like/dislike smO, their educational stuff is pretty good.
The person who has been running educational stuff for smO for the past … god I don’t know how long… is absolutely impeccable. She is respectful, polite, and absolutely impeccable with her word. However, she will no longer be involved with running the organization after October. Thus I am a little scared of how things will go. I also didn’t say to absolutely boycott them, just that I am wary.
I understand your frustration — you and I have discussed it a bit already, so this is no surprise. I do hope, however, that your boycott of SFCitadel doesn’t end up having an undesirable affect on the efforts of those of us who *are* trying to make a difference there.
We took our Primal party private for some of the reasons you mention. It put control of certain important aspects of the party in our hands. I hope, as you communicate your ire to others, that you will differentiate between SFCitadel-run events and private events. Starting a mass exodus that includes private events will only hurt those who are putting their money on the line to provide opportunities for others, not SFCitadel itself. We have to pay them the full amount for the rental, regardless of attendance.
Our Newcomer and Paideia classes are offered there because it seems prudent to have education for newbies coming in. We consider it a service to the bdsm community at large, rather than specifically for SFCitadel. And no, we won’t take these classes to Edges, because we cannot, in good conscience, support the organizers there, either. We were too close to things that happened in the past to be able to say what they did was okay. And that’s all I care to say about that situation online.
I don’t keep up in Tribe sufficiently to comment on a general policy for deleting threads. I do know about a few specific situations where some threads were deleted, and I understand and agree with why they were deleted. This most recent situation was very definitely because of one particular individual, and this isn’t the only place where I have seen a tendency to sit back and criticize the work of others, without doing any of the heavy lifting personally. (On that person’s part, not yours.)
I’m a little too close to the situation to be able to just shrug my shoulders and say “Not my problem”, because I’m on the SFCitadel Advisory Board. There are some of us who are trying to make a difference, regardless of whether or not our efforts are apparent to anyone. And there are changes happening, whether or not those are evident at the present.
I’d better stop now. A night of very little sleep, and a period of high stress is not conducive to good communication.
I am not trying to hurt private events. I will however say that as long as people choose to host events there they are in fact supporting the space. That means that if I do not want to support the space I need to not attend anything there as any and all presence is supporting the space in at least a roundabout fashion.
I understand, and I support your right to take that stance.
Keep in mind, though, that when you say “I have no respect for the way it is being run” you are including more than the owners in your statement, whether you mean to or not. My partner and I, for example. We may not, as Advisory Board members, have final decision rights, but we, and others working with us, are working hard to try to affect the way it is being run – for the better.
Angela, I love you very much and I hope I am able to communicate in such a way as to facilitate you hearing this how I mean.
I appreciate that you are trying very hard to change how the Citadel is being run. I understand that this is something you are basically cutting into your vein to feed. I do understand that. I am not trying to devalue the fact that you are trying. I am trying to express that as long as August is the public face and voice and as long as she continues to deport herself the way she does and as long as the Citadel is run as her little playground, I will have no respect for the way the dungeon is run. I feel that the space will not be able to get better as long as the well is poisoned by her presence.
As soon as she is gone I will come back and reevaluate with an open mind. Until then I do not believe much of anything will change my mind. I’m sorry if my position hurts you, for that is not my intent. But silence is consent and by going and staying silent about my feelings about how August is running things is condoning her atrocious behavior when she has hurt some people I care about through her actions. I can’t do that, not for any reason. Not even because I love you so much.
>> Keep in mind, though, that when you say “I have no respect for the way it is being run” you are including more than the owners in your statement, whether you mean to or not. <<
Unfortunately, the management of any space or group tends to be perceived as a whole, and in alignment with whatever people’s overall experience of the space and the management is. If what is seen on the front lines is perceived as negative, after a while, it becomes hard to continue to support anything, even if what’s behind the front lines is perfectly good. You and Iain could be doing all the wonderful things in the world, Angela, but if the face of the Citadel is more frequently alienating people with the cliques and attitudes as is happening, that is *going* to have a negative effect.
We shouldn’t *have* to volunteer to be able to have a say in how a space that is promoted as a community center is run – nor should we even have to attend frequently to be counted. Everyone who walks in that door who is not helping out with their labor is contributing financially. We’re called “paying customers”.
In most companies, the maxim is that the customer is always right. Why is it that the customer is always wrong here instead, if their opinions just aren’t as happy-happy-joy-joy the same as the staff’s?
I’ve never in my life seen a place where *paying customer’s* opinions are so routinely discounted and made wrong, and are chewed out and people *kicked out* for making suggestions.
And you know, censorship and excluding people from groups never resolves anything. All it does is piss people off and create more resentments – which in turn increases the perceptions of cliquiness, unfairness, etc. If there’s really nothing to hide, then even stringent criticisms should hold up to the light of day. Censoring them just increases the belief that the people doing the censoring are hiding something, or *know* that what has been said is true, but they don’t want to cop to it.
>> This most recent situation was very definitely because of one particular individual, and this isn’t the only place where I have seen a tendency to sit back and criticize the work of others, without doing any of the heavy lifting personally. (On that person’s part, not yours.) <<
Unless you have been present every time that person has been, perhaps you ought to refrain from judging their activity level, since you can’t have seen it for yourself.
I’m with you on this. I think the better run parties are the private parties vs. Citadel run events.
Now that I think about it, the only Citadel events I’ve attended in the last year or so are private, and the reason I know this is I do not have a Citadel membership.
I’ve been hearing a lot of good stuff coming out about the Citadel, I think changes are being made. However the cliques continue, and are favored. Until that perception changes, there will be folks who will boycott.
I am sad that there is derision between Citadel / Edges (which I don’t know, nor do I care to know). But then again, time heals wounds, people change and perhaps that will change too.
I Love you so much. I am glad to see this post as well as the others I have seen like it. The place’s energy comes from the top persons. And yes, I am aware that is more than just the owners. Anyone who lets the owners and staff continue to use and abuse the people there are also to blame.
I’m sorry you feel that way, though I can understand why you might. Not *all* the “top persons” have that same energy, though.
I also want to propose this thought. Perhaps some people are staying and trying to create change, rather than leaving. “Be the change you wish to see in the world.” Because, in the end, as she said in the original post, eventually the space may go away. And I don’t think my community benefits from that, either.
We all choose to fight our battles in our own ways.
>> Perhaps some people are staying and trying to create change, rather than leaving. <<
That’s the only reason *I’ve* stuck around at all myself for a couple of years now – both in the scene in general and at the Citadel in particular. I do most of the work I do in this direction online, though. It may be less directly related to the Citadel, but we all contribute in whatever ways we are able.
Alas, after a while, if you don’t see changes actually happen, the desire to attend decreases dramatically. When comments you intend as helpful suggestions are met with repeated screaming and yelling attacks upon your character and accusations that aren’t even true as has happened to me, that also doesn’t exactly help increase the desire to stick around.
Thank you so much for this, K/L.
What really sucks is being accused of something that isn’t even accurate.
It’s also become obvious to me that volunteering more wouldn’t matter, precisely *because* everything flows downhill.
oooh, yes
“I also observe a lot of attitude that looks a lot like “our volunteers should be GRATEFUL we’re letting them help!” This behavior frequently goes along with expecting established volunteers to put more time, effort, and/or money into the volunteer project then most jobs would expect, while getting nothing except that warm feeling – and when those expectations aren’t met, throwing gigantic guilt trips.”
I’m certainly guilty of drinking that particular kool-aid, but only to my own foot-shooting. ::sigh::
In a year or so, the wheel will turn as it always does. As long as August continues to be unprofessional, the business will go downhill. Then something new will open up. ::shrug::
I feel you, though.