Here is a fascinating article on the differences and similarities between FGM and circumcision. http://www.circumcisionandhiv.com/files/darby_mgm_fgm_maq_0907.pdf
It’s 23 pages long but absolutely worth the read.
Here is a fascinating article on the differences and similarities between FGM and circumcision. http://www.circumcisionandhiv.com/files/darby_mgm_fgm_maq_0907.pdf
It’s 23 pages long but absolutely worth the read.
There are many, many issues out there that I will passively observe and come to my own conclusions later, but male and female circumcision is one of the very very few soapboxes that I will get on just about anywhere and anyplace.
Thanks for posting.
No problem. It’s one of my many soapboxes. 🙂 I am not ok with the practice of mutilating a child soon after birth for cultural reasons. That horrifies me.
I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
I saw a lot of the arguments in this article against the milder forms of male circumcision as blatant “strawman” arguments.
I also point out that while the authors allege bias and cultural blindness of those who stand against their views, they make no room in their discussion for the possibility that they carry similar burdens themselves, despite the fact that their arguments regarding male circumcision run counter to organizations such as the CDC (as they themselves admit at the top of their own website as the very basis for having created it) generally considered to be much more mainstream.
I think we’d agree that certainly parents do not have the right (to make up a truly horrific example) to stick red hot iron pokers into their babies eyes, and certainly there’s a point of physical harm somewhere along the spectrum where the parents have to be seen as incompetent to govern consent on behalf of their child where the rest of society has to step in to prevent it. But (I think quite reasonably) society doesn’t step in when parents pierce their babies’ ears for earrings (as an example of a point along the spectrum I think we’d agree is on the reasonable side of the dividing line). And based on what it specifically entails, I think the divide should be placed in such a way as to allow for Jewish male circumcision.
So lastly, I believe that at least the type of male circumcision performed in my particular (sub)culture (i.e. Judaism) to be a sufficiently “mild” alteration as to be within reasonable bounds of the rights of parents to give consent on behalf of their children (parents being the people generally designated by societies throughout history to govern consent for most actions on behalf of their children as yet unable to do so themselves), even if “merely” performed for cultural reasons, and I’m totally at peace with having personally chosen to have this done WITH MY OWN SON.
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
A lot of what I got out of the article was that it is unreasonable to say that female genitalia should never be altered but it isn’t a big deal to do it to males. I feel they did a good job of showing how both activities happen on a spectrum. Yet to the best of my knowledge I do not personally know a single person who would say, “I think that the more mild forms of female circumcisions are fine because it is cultural.” The most mild forms of female circumcision are on par with male circumcision, yet we have this huge cultural bias about them.
I don’t agree with the practice, and I’m allowed to say that. I don’t care if it is PC or not. If you think it is fine for you to do that with your son, well–I don’t get to say much beyond “I don’t agree with the practice.” You get to make the decision for your child. I do believe that if we are going to go so far as to pass laws restricting female circumcision that male circumcision should be included because males deserve genital integrity as much as females do. If we are going to allow one we need to allow the other and not essentially declare that our cultural bias is superior to other cultural biases.
For the record, I don’t agree with piercing a child’s ears either. She gets to decide how her body is altered, not me. I believe that elective and/or cosmetic decisions about a persons body should only be made by that person.
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
I think it’s perfectly fine to have some cultural biases. Such biases are part of what defines having a culture at all, and the fact that this topic points up an example of cultural bias is OK by me. I think that some cultural biases have a stronger moral argument against them than others, that not every culture is equal, and I don’t see where the argument against the cultural bias in favor of male infant circumcision is really all that powerful to the point where we as a society really need to intervene and pass laws to stop it. Is the perceived harm of less than total “genital integrity” really that high? My experience as a circumcised male, my experience as a father of a circumcised male, and my (sub)culture’s 5800+ year experience with the practice all argue otherwise. I just don’t see how you reach it being worth getting up on a soapbox over.
On the other point, I guess I don’t really know enough about the “milder” forms of female infant “circumcision” or the significance and symbolism of such acts in each and every culture that practices it, in order to really have a definitive opinion as to whether I think they should be universally banned or not; whether they in and of themselves cross some reasonable threshold of irresponsibility on behalf of the parents who are the guardians of the children’s right to consent. So maybe now you _do_ know someone who might say such a thing could possibly be fine in certain circumstances. Still, if female infant “circumcision” is part of a general pattern of disrespect for females within a culture (whereas male infant circumcision does no such thing within any of the cultures that practice it) then there is a bigger problem within such cultures. I think that this might often be the case, and this might be where some of our Western cultural bias stems from with respect to this issue.
And while I fully support your right to make choices for _your_ child about earrings, I ask you to consider how you’d feel if a friend of yours said, within your hearing, “You didn’t pierce your baby girl’s ears??? That horrifies me.”
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
I would say, “I believe that elective and/or cosmetic decisions about a persons body should only be made by that person. If you feel differently that is your problem.”
I tried to talk my brother out of circumcising his sons. He told me, “I think it is important for boys to look like their dads.” I asked him, “If you lose a finger in an accident–are you going to cut off one of their fingers?” He told me I was ridiculous.
I think it is the same thing.
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
As long as you’re OK to leave it as “That’s your problem” and not “We should pass a law to prevent you from doing what I disagree with” I guess I’m somewhat less appalled, though the link you gave seems to argue for just such a law.
I also don’t feel that your analogy of fingers to foreskin is valid at all, one being a lot more functionally important than the other. Foreskin would be more like a bit of a fingertip.
Lastly, “for boys to look like their dads” is nothing like the argument for circumcision that I’ve been making, and not in any way the reason why Jews perform infant male circumcision. A deeply significant and 5800 year old religious rite of an entire culture of millions and millions of people is hardly the same as your brother’s petty little peer-pressure argument. That you used the word “horrified” to describe your reaction to what is a longstanding, central, and I believe relatively benign cultural tradition of mine is insulting, not to mention culturally biased in its own right.
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
I honestly have mixed feelings as to whether it should be a law or not. My Libertarian bent says, “Stay the fuck out of my parenting!” On the other hand it seems to me like the kind of decision someone should be allowed to make for themself… *sigh* This is one where due to my mixed feelings I believe that the policy should be to not make a law. Not everyone has the same feelings as me though. I do believe that if we are going to legislate about female circumcision that male circumcision deserves the same treatment. In my opinion that is about respecting the culture of African tribes/nations as much as Jewish culture. I dislike that Judaism gets more of a pass because it is more “Western”. I think that is bullshit.
I don’t think you are a terrible person or a terrible parent for doing it. I think you are a very good parent who is following the tenets of a religion I don’t believe in. You most assuredly have every right to do that. I was probably not very clear about that.
I also said, “This is a fascinating article” not “OMG these people totally explained all of my beliefs.” I had never before thought explicitly about the degree to which boys are given less credit for deserving genital integrity than girls. That’s an interesting thing for me to think about. I think that the sexist implications are pretty sad. I *hate* that many feminists have very little respect for boys/men and this dichotomy is one way of showing that lack of respect.
I agree with you that my brother is stupid and petty and should not be compared to you and your choice. I argued that poorly. If all circumcision at this point was done solely by Jews in the context of their religion I would have a lot less of an axe to grind on the topic. I would still dislike it. I would still find it horrifying. I find it horrifying because I have watched multiple videos chronicling standard hospital circumcision and it made me almost vomit. I was very disturbed by it both mentally and physically. I am sorry if that reaction seems insensitive to your culture because I feel bad about insulting you as my friend. I can’t really bring myself to believe I shouldn’t feel that way though. 🙁
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
Analogies are frought with peril, but I’ll make one anyway…
In “Human Sexuality” class in college I watched a Navy training film which was almost literally entitled “How to Help a Woman Give Birth who Goes Into Labor While Aboard Your Battleship Far Out at Sea”. (Why the US Navy ever made such a training film is a separate discussion, I think.) Anyway, it was _gross_! It was _bloody_! It was _messy_! It really was absolutely _horrible_!
I was in the delivery room when my son was born. It was _very_ different, and I’m incredibly happy I was there (and vertical!) throughout the activity. I cherish it.
So I suspect similarly that watching videos of clinical hospital circumcisions is not the same thing as attending a Brit Milah. (I remained vertical through that one as well!) If you have any Jewish friends planning to ever have any more kids, I hope you’ll consider taking the opportunity to attend one with this thought in mind and see if you feel differently afterward.
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On another point, I don’t think that the Western cultural bias against African cultures’ practice of ritual female “circumcision” as compared to the Jewish practice of ritual male circumcision is based on the latter being more “Western”. I think it’s based on a perception that ritual female infant “circumcision” in African cultures is part of a larger cultural practice and process of denigrating and demeaning the value of women in general. Further, the more “mild” forms of infant female “circumcision” are culturally related to the more egregious and more debilitating forms. Neither of these points apply in the case of Jewish ritual male infant circumcision, so I think it is on this basis that it is more accepted and why the Feminist movement opposes the other so much more strongly, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
Two points:
I don’t actually think that it would be a good idea for me to attend a Brit Milah. I think that because whereas I would desperately want to be fully supportive of my friend on their spiritual journey with their child I may find that in the moment I would feel terrible thoughts about my friend and not be positive for the environment. I love all of my friends enough to say, “I am not going to join you in an event where I may not be able to be supportive.” You might be right in that I would change my opinion but I don’t think it is fair to enter into a situation like that as a “maybe”.
I think that we as outsiders do not fully understand the African practices. Many of the people fighting hardest for it to remain are women and they do not believe that outsiders have the right to come in and judge their actions in their culture.
I think it is all very complicated. I’m once again grateful that I will never have to be the one to make the decisions about what goes into law in matters such as these because I don’t really know what should be law and what shouldn’t. I’m very conflicted.
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
I think comparing ear piercing and circumcision as body modifications to be made by that person’s decision is a misleading comparision. While ears can be pierced at any time, circumcisions become very different beasts when applied to an adult male’s physiognomy.
I, too, consider myself to be Jewish, and had we had a son, we would have had a brit milah, performed by a very experienced person.
It IS a very complicated decision, but I do feel this is one of those things that falls under the category of decisions that a parent makes for their child, or the decision is not to be made at all, and that it certainly is not one for the law to make.
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
I hear and understand that we have different beliefs in this area. 🙂
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
I think your reasons for rejecting my suggestion are perfectly reasonable, and thank you for at least being open to the analogy even though you may never go to a ceremony in person.
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
I am basically always willing to listen to your arguments because you are a very reasonable, sensible, thoughtful person. Even given those qualities I still sometimes disagree with you. 🙂
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
>I believe that elective and/or cosmetic decisions about a persons body should only be made by that person.
I am curious what you think about cochlear implants.
They are best done when the child is too young to have
an informed opinion. It is elective, in some senses, but not if you want your deaf child to hear. It seems complicated.
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
I don’t think helping a child hear is the same sort of elective/cosmetic decision. Technically it is “elective” they can go their entire life without it, but it isn’t the same to me.
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
Just for your consideration, not because I necessarily agree with either side of this issue or have really given it a lot of consideration either way, an article about widely disparate opinions within the deaf community regarding cochlear implants…
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1998/06/02/sunday/main10794.shtml
Re: I read the whole article and was unimpressed.
Oh wow. Thank you. I am not really surprised but I didn’t actually know that.