As I am trying to get my thoughts in order I thought I would ask ya’ll some questions. This is one of those times when I want as much feedback as I can get. Given the nature of polls, it is hard to get nuanced answers so I encourage, nay beg! you all to comment with your individual perspectives and opinions.
The assumption built in to question #3
Interesting. I saw question #3 and my immediate reaction was, yes, it might affect how I feel about the person, though probably not by much. Then I started hunting through the answers, looking for one that might help me articulate how it affects how I feel about people. But one by one, I saw negatives, and quickly dismissed them, until I got to the end, and clicked other. It was so easy to dismiss them all, because the effect is definitely not negative. Odd to see so many variations on bad, tentatively bad, nuanced between neutral and bad, etc., but nothing good!
Lemme try to write my own answer:
Does the “number” of partners that someone has had affect how you feel or think about them?
If someone has had a lot of partners, the connotations that carries for me are:
1. more likely to be compatible with my social groups
2. possibly open attitude towards sex without guilt or similar issues
(yes, I know that’s not always true, but that’s the first connotation my mind leaps to)
3. might enjoy some of the parties I go to that other people wouldn’t
4. if attractive and female, then more worth considering as a potential partner than otherwise
5. possible potential ally in making society (and politics!) more pro-sex
As I said, the effect is mild. But to the extent that there is an effect, it’s along those lines. The question surprised me for leaving all of those possibilities out entirely, but having so many variations on the “other side”.
Re: The assumption built in to question #3
These questions are of course set along the lines of my fears and/or biases. That particular question was definitely written with fears of judgment in mind.
Re: The assumption built in to question #3
your questions are strongly biased towards negative answers. While I understand that the questions were framed around specific insecurities, you will have to keep in mind that the negative bias will lead to negative answers. If I were to ask you: “who was more difficult to live with: A) Jennifer, B) Sara, C) Jennifer and Sara were equally difficult to live with” the answers garnered are going to be negative. If you don’t leave room for a sincerely positive answer you won’t get any. Even if I offered a choice “D) it wasn’t difficult to live with Jennifer and Sara”, if wouldn’t create an accurate poll because all of the answers are true and all of them are false.
For instance your last question leaves no room for my answer which is “I’m interested in the TMI because, while I’m neither interested in you sexually nor am I interested in your life as porn, I do care about you and want to hear what you have to say.” You decide what you’re comfortable sharing and I’ll decide, on a case-by-case basis, what I’m comfortable reading.
Re: The assumption built in to question #3
All very true, but I can’t go back and change poll answers. 🙂
Request for more info…
How do you think you managed to shift into thinking that sex with lots of people is a positive trait? That is totally alien to how I was brought up and I am curious how you managed to do that.
Re: The assumption built in to question #3
What you said here.
I don’t have a problem with someone’s number of partners, but I do have a negative reaction when I perceive someone to be non-picky. I don’t have any moral or ethical problems with casual sex, but I still on some level feel like sex should at least be saved for people you like and respect, for a whole lot of reasons that would be a very long comment.
Also, if it’s someone I’m interested in/somewhat involved with, if I feel that they aren’t very choosy in who else they’re involved with it makes me feel a little less special or something. Especially if I actively dislike the other partners to any degree. As it turns out, I don’t just have to respect the people I’m sleeping with, I have to respect the people they’re sleeping with, or I get unhappy. This is one of the many reasons I’m not sleeping with more people.
That’s the emotional aspect to me. Another aspect of my feelings on regular casual sex is that it makes me uncomfortable simply because of things like herpes that get passed despite barriers. If we lived in a world where there were no STDs, or even if all the ones there were were 1. cureable or 2. easily protected against via barriers, I would be much more comfortable with casual sex. But as it is, I’m not that comfortable with casual sex that has those risks, although I am comfortable with casual types of sex that *aren’t* liable to pass viruses.
For me, even if STDs weren’t a factor I probably wouldn’t be very good at casual sex, I have too much of a tendency to get attached and emotional about it. But, assuming it’s done safely, I kinda wish I was more of a casual sex person, and I really expected to be until I tried it. The difference between ideals and emotions is odd.
My question is: what does choosy mean? Does it matter if they are choosy 95% of the time but once in a while they have made an impulsive decision that they weren’t super thrilled with later?
Do you find yourself projecting that sex should be emotional on other people or are you able to recognize it as your own baggage?
Honestly, I’m coming from a place of extreme frustration with a certain situation, so “choosy” at this point largely means the opposite of what a certain person’s done. ahem.
But aside from that, it’s not about the occasional impulsive decisions, it’s about a general course of actions. And I think, oddly enough, I’d have less trouble with someone going to clubs and parties and engaging in lots of casual yet safe sex in sex positive environments then I seem to with a person who seems to end up sleeping with most of the people that show interest in her.
Actually, you know what? I don’t think I can have a meaningful train of thought about what choosy means while I’m pissed off, because I’m realizing that the number and choice of partners may actually have very little to do with it, and that it has much more to do with the way the situation is handled, and the amount of respect the person in question shows to not just their partners but themselves. And in the current situation on my mind I’m not sure there was respect for anyone, including herself, and that may just be what I’m responding to.
I think in general I recognize it as my own baggage, though that depends on whether it’s projecting to think that a level of respect and liking should be present for it to be a healthy situation for all involved. Although the fact that how much prior knowledge of the person is necessarily highly depends, for me, on the exact sex act in question, and that the amount of absolute safety possible in that sex act affects my opinion, makes me think that a large portion of my bias comes down to std avoidance. (and that’s in others – for myself I have that plus an unfortunate tendency to fall for people I didn’t mean to.) I think a lot of it comes down to: if you don’t know someone, you can’t trust them, and since most sex *can’t* be totally safe, sex with people you can’t trust (to be forthcoming about stds, etc) is a bad idea.
Go you for owning your baggage. 🙂
What sex are you referring to when you are talking about sex that can be done with much lower risk? I have some ideas, but I’m not sure what is in your head.
Toys instead of attached extremities, hands with gloves, etc – things that don’t involve mucal membranes touching mucal membranes. (that some people might not count as sex, but I do.)
And I like to think that while I may have a bunch of baggage, at least I know it’s there.:)
My question is: what does choosy mean?
I know it wasn’t me you were asking but I had an interesting thought on this lately… I realized that historically (since right now we’re being monogamous) my boy and I have both been choose but in different ways that makes the other seem less choosy. Me, I’m VERY picky about looks. I have a physical type and someone either does it for me or doesn’t. I’ve slept with a couple of people who didn’t and it made me feel crappy all around so I stopped doing that. However, sleeping with someone pretty and later finding out they were a jerk never particularly bothered me – it just meant I distanced myself from them afterwards, but I still look back on it as being fun sex.
He, on the other hand, doesn’t have a physical type as such and doesn’t actually decide if he is attracted to someone until he’s gotten to know them a little and decided if they’re generally intelligent and non-assholes. So in terms of the criteria each of us sees as important, the other of us seems non-picky. But actually we’re both pretty picky in our own way. As demonstrated by the fact that in the end we ended up sleeping with pretty comparable numbers of people.
Not being a shit, but is it the number that decides whether or not you are picky? You are both demonstrating very different matrixes and they don’t negate one another. Why is either better/different than yet another standard?
I don’t think I understand the question. It seems to be orthogonal to the point I was trying to make so I’m not really sure how to answer.
My understanding of your post was that you two are exhibiting similar qualities of picky even though your standards are totally different. I’m wondering if this actually holds water though. And do you think that any set standard of picky is “worth more” than any other?
My understanding of your post was that you two are exhibiting similar qualities of picky even though your standards are totally different.
Not similar qualities – similar levels. I.E. if we both encounter N random people we’ll each find about X% worth pursuing. They’ll just be largely disjoint sets.
And do you think that any set standard of picky is “worth more” than any other?
Not at all. What I’m saying is that until I realized this I thought he was less picky than I am. It’s easy to see someone as “not picky” if on the axis you usually chose for picking people the other person doesn’t have a standard. And I think that everyone is going to think that their own standard is “worth more” in some manner since if they thought it was worthless they wouldn’t use it.
I like your answer. 🙂
makes me feel a little less special or something
(nods) that makes an impact on me, too… what’s special about being someone’s 88th, especially when 20-30 of those were one-time with strangers or at parties?
Well… I am going to be a bitch here…
I have a friend who is still a virgin at 28. He would gladly have casual sex with anyone who is willing, but he has never had the self-confidence to approach anyone else and he is rather unattractive and has never been approached. I would not feel terribly special being his first.
Whereas if I am at a sex party and a hot, sexy, awesome person has their choice of a dozen or so highly attractive, intelligent, interesting people and they pick *me* then I feel very special. (It was an awesome Saturday night.)
YMMV
Doesn’t seem particularly bitchy to me, I agree with you. It has to do with being chosen… chosen by someone attractive? Sure, that’s great. Feeling like just the friend that someone finally got around to playing with, years later, because their more-interesting options that night weren’t available? That’s not so great.
Ok, it is interesting to me that seeing your line of thought has really spurred a lot of my own feelings into a more definite shape.
There is someone in my life who I have known for just shy of 10 years. We are just starting to date. I have to say that when/if I sleep with this person it will most assuredly be special because I have significant investment in this person first as a friend and then more recently as someone I have grown into seeing as that kind of possibility. I think if I would have slept with him when I had the first twinges of vague interest in him back in the day it wouldn’t have been special.
Oh, and it is interesting that you define special based on the fact that someone has had few partners. My first two partners and my fourth partner were anything but special. A partner…. wayyyyy down the list… was very very very special. I also want to point out that your attitude seems to convey that once someone has had many partners they can never have sex that is special again because by definition them having had sex with so many people makes it not special anymore.
Do you really mean that?
Well, someone with few partners is probably choosy, and not likely to have responded to just a few initial twinges of interest. Can anything (or anyone 😉 achieved *that* easily really be worth having?
Otherwise… someone who has had lots and lots of partners still may feel like their latest is special *to them*… it is their feeling, their responsibility. Whether Mr./Ms. 112 feels special despite being at the bottom of a long list, rather than lucky to be there at all, is likely highly variable. YMMV…
I guess I’m not worth having then. Thanks for clarifying that for me Jay.
Implying that you see yourself as *that* easy, per se? Well, IMO you’re still smart and pretty and quirky and cute, and friendly, and that’s going to be more than enough for lots of people.
Anyone that came on to me quickly would likely be frustrated, as I often take weeks-to-months just to decide if I like someone well enough to allow myself to be attracted to them physically. But that’s my own approach to dating, no one else’s, and there are good reasons for it.
You have made it quite clear that anyone who is dealing in triple digits just isn’t worth having. I’m not there yet, but I will get there. It isn’t going to take that much longer.
Hmmm.. that’s interesting.
Why? Because you can’t quite pigeonhole me as someone with no standards who is icki but you really want to because you want to just be judgmental about activity without knowing the people in question?
Preconceived judgment isn’t a particularly great thing.
sigh. This was the subject of your poll… I’ve tried to stick to my own feelings and thoughts, and not make “you-” statements. Given your response, it feels to me like you’ve taken it personally, saying I wouldn’t see you as attractive… but I’ve never so much as been on your radar, myself, so why should you care what attracts me? Now I feel like I need to reassure you, when I wasn’t remotely thinking about you that way in the first place. Commenting here wasn’t intended as a personal reflection on you, or anyone, I just thought I was adding a contrasting data point.
Wow… I’m not sure we’re going to agree on this, philosophically. What do we need to do to be able to agree to disagree and remain friends, here?
No, you aren’t on my radar and I am certainly not interested in trying to get you to like or want me. I am also not upset because you might not like me. Instead I stop and think about the many men and women in my life who have similar numbers and your comments indicate a complete lack of respect for us.
Those of us who choose wildly different paths than you–perhaps people who don’t feel the need to choke their partners with long lists of arbitrary rules in order to achieve an ephemeral sense of “security”–according to you cannot engage in relationships that are special. I am so irate because I know that as for me, and most of the people I know who are promiscuous more or less agree, I support people choosing whatever path works for them. I don’t think that anyone’s choices are any better or worse based on something arbitrary.
I don’t know that I respect the opinion that someone is less if they have a different view than you.
Just because someone has over 100 past contacts does *not* mean that I think someone is less, or evil, or a bad person, or that I don’t like them. It does mean that they *scare* me, that they feel too emotionally and physically risky to let that close to my heart, as though they might just as easily discard it and move on to the next.
Your heart is located awfully low in your abdomen. Have you had a doctor examine that? It might be unhealthy.
Anyone that came on to me quickly would likely be frustrated, as I often take weeks-to-months just to decide if I like someone well enough to allow myself to be attracted to them physically.
Wouldn’t it therefore be reasonable to conclude then that ANYONE who was willing to exert the patience necessary to get through this trial-period if you will, would therefore have a high level of interest in you and consider you special? No matter how many other people in the past they had managed to get into bed in a much shorter timeframe? In fact the very fact that they HAVE had partners they acquired in a shorter time MAKES you a special case in comparison, since they KNOW they could get someone else in a shorter timespan but they were willing to put in the time and effort necessary to get YOU.
I miss Rooster Teeth’s karma system, because I would have just given you about +5 ditto.
From their point of view, I agree, that’s a sign that they’d have a high level of interest, if they’re willing to take the time to get to know me before playing. They might even see me as special, given that I intentionally have filters (and a public persona) designed to discourage anyone with only a passing or casual interest in me. So only those with a high level of interest in me are likely to bother, yes.
From my point of view, I might disagree… I don’t want to think about the legions of lovers that were there before me, and what they might have left behind.
Why not?
Twofold, I think…
Physically, barriers don’t stop everything, and not everything is testable. There’s a cliche to the effect that when one has sex with a partner, one is at some level having sex with everyone they’d previously done. Thinking about all of those previous lovers… can be overwhelming, then, triggering fear and internal risk alarms.
More importantly, IMO, emotionally all those past lovers are a reminder that this paerson has rejected scores of other people in the past, leaving them behind… and I’d better find some way to keep from meeting the same fate, dumped and forgotten in turn. Very scary… being reminded that I’m giving my heart to someone that has a track record of leaving a trail of ex-lovers, broken hearts in zir wake. And thinking about all of them leads me to clench, realizing that I’m likely to be hurt and then discarded in turn, just like all of those past lovers. (shiver)
I should just walk away, but it’s my journal and I can have the last word even if takes until doomsday.
No, not everything is testable. Like HPV, which you probably have. Past HPV I can’t actually think of anything non-testable but it probably exists. Do you know how many germs you risk every day when you walk out of your house? When you eat in restaurants? The risk of you getting food poisoning and having it kill you is remarkably high. Risks are part of life. But that said, I am really not trying to talk you into sleeping with me or anyone else–just trying to point out the holes in your argumentation that you are somehow safer by not being with people have had ‘x’ number of partners.
I have a serious problem with the idea that I have left scores of broken hearts behind me because I have had sex with people. If I stop and think really hard about my experiences (the list was wiped out with a hard drive crash) I remember many people who were casual lovers. We met, talked, felt attracted, had sex, and parted with happy smiles on our faces and thanks on our lips. No broken hearts there. I think of friends with whom I still having loving relationships and sometimes have sex. No broken hearts there. I think of long term relationships… Yes, I broke Stephen’s heart but I had to leave that relationship because it was completely wrong for me. I didn’t hurt Tom any more than he hurt me and that relationship had run along as far as was possible. Noah… god that is a complicated situation that doesn’t seem to be completely over though I know I have hurt him. Puppy ripped my heart out and not the other way around.
It seems to me that your version of “having sex with someone” sounds an awful lot like the traditional “till death do us part” commitment and frankly that is a bit archaic.
I really don’t give a shit what you do with your life and your partners, but you are awfully judgmental about what other people do with theirs and that seems odd to me. Do you want people to be accepting of your multiple relationships? Maybe you should have slightly less negativity for people who also choose to have multiple relationships just in different forms. Your comments usually reflect that those of us who have many partners are disease factories and that we hurt people left and right in the process. Then you get all defensive and pissy when we take those comments personally. How else should they be taken? Oh wait–you mean that *Every other* person who engages in this kind of behavior is like your estimation but somehow I manage to be an exception? Give me a break.
That’s not actually what I was referring to – it has nothing to do with *number* and everything to do with the feeling of “If that guy she’s sleeping with is a dick, what does that say about me?”
Ha. I can certainly understand that and I have felt that a few times. But you are right, it has nothing to do with number.
A lot of what a word means depends on how it’s said. While certain words are emotionally charge (slut, nigger, bitch, bastard, to name a few) they can embraced and given a more positive interpretation by individuals or groups. As a corollary example, if someone I didn’t know were to call me a bitch I’d default to the negatively charged meaning and if my friend tells me that I’m a bitch I’d know she breeds dogs and that the bitch is the ranking female in the pack, and it’s a compliment.
Just be aware that you are my bitch. 😉
Do you think that any of these words can be used in a positive way even by members of an “in” crowd? I have some doubts about a few of them.
I think it’s worth the effort. Words change over time. 100 years ago gay just meant carefree and happy, 500 (aproximation) years ago fuck was a polite euphamism.
Depends on what you mean by “positive”
Do you think that any of these words can be used in a positive way even by members of an “in” crowd? I have some doubts about a few of them.
In my college dorm, I was in a tightknit circle of friends who referred to one another as ‘bitch’ in a very teasing way. Also within that circle were two black women who called one another ‘nigger’ all the time, but wouldn’t have accepted that from any of us who were not black, regardless of how teasingly, or even lovingly, it might have be said.
And when I first moved to California, I dated a fellow I met online whose ad started out with ‘Arrogant Bastard’ in its description. He wasn’t, of course — and when I would softly chide him with “you bastard”, when he would push me to see if I could come *one more time*, I obviously didn’t think he was, either. 😉
Re: Depends on what you mean by “positive”
See, I think that if a word isn’t ok from anyone then it isn’t ok. I don’t like double standards like that.
Re: Depends on what you mean by “positive”
Words are just letters strung together. It is what they symbolize that carries the meaning. A large part of interpreting the meaning of a word is the context – WHO is saying it, and HOW did they say it? “Nigger” is a _particluarly_ charged word, but that is due to the historical context. I the scenario described, it seems like the meaning from context is we-are-sisters-in-adversity. It implies inclusion in a group of shared understanding. For someone outside that “group” to use the term, even as an expression of affection, would seem like they are trying to elbow their way into that inclusion, and I could see how that could be offensive. If there were a word that meant fellow-abuse-survivor, I would not presume to address one with it, because I do not belong in that club either.
The meaning of any word can be different when used in any clique – shared experiences tie groups together and words can shift in meaning because of associations they have from the past. Is it a double standard that “Hail Skippy!” now has a different meaning for some folks than for others? It’s just another string of letters.
Does the “number” of partners that someone has had affect how you feel or think about them?
Somewhat, but not in a linear way. In general, I’d have a positive response to a woman who’d had a large number of partners, and a mildly negative response to a man who’d had a large number of female partners. The negative reaction to the man is mostly envy, though.
If a person has a large number of partners because (s)he is incapable of sustaining a longer-term relationship, then I might have a negative response, but because of the relationship-duration thing, and the effects of that, rather than the raw number of partners.
In general, if number of partners (whether high or low) is a symptom of something else, then I might have a negative view of the person for that something else, rather than for the number.
Why do you think that you have a positive reaction to women who have had a large number of sexual partners? Is it because you think she will be better at sex and therefore more satisfying to play with? How do you define longer-term relationships as well? I like the last comment though that your response is going to be more based on the corrolary reason rather than on the manifestion of number of partners.
I’m not entirely sure why I have that positive reaction – it may be because she is likely to be more fun having learned from more people (as in dancing), or it may be because I think it means there’s a better chance she’ll have sex with me, or it may be that I think it means she’s generally sex-positive and not repressed. Or all three, in some combination.
“Longer-term” depends somewhat on age, but I’m thinking somewhere over six months to a year without being tied by shared living arrangements, or similar.
I am very interested in the idea that they might be more interesting because they are more likely to have sex with you.
Do you think that you can separate the idea of “She is more likely to have sex with me” from “She is more likely to have sex with anyone“. And do you think that you are more likely to have a longer relationship with someone who is very casual about sex? Do you think that you separate your attraction to people into categories at all?
Yes, the reaction to number of partners was difficult, so I double chose on that one. I don’t have any issues with someone having a lot of experience with a lot of people – but I also have a strong penchant for virgins (or close to it). My friends used to laugh at me because I would gravitate to the one virgin in the room, every time. It isn’t even necessarily a conscious decision, it just happens.
I picked check boxes so that people could double vote on purpose. 🙂
It kind of sounds to me that you fetishize virgins and that is entirely separate from your judgment of someone as a person. Do you think this might be true?
To illustrate in another way: just because someone is highly drawn to people who have blonde hair that doesn’t mean that they think negatively of/avoid people who have brown hair. Does that sound similar?
You got it in one. I hadn’t thought of it as a fetish, but I suppose you’re right. Thanks for the insight.
To me, it’s a very complex issue. Part 1, I do NOT like the associations or connotations of words like slut or promiscuous. I identify hedonism, but that’s not exactly the right word.
Part 2: I like anonymous and casual. They’re arousing. Liking either or both of those necessitates a certain level of sexual activity, a certain number of partners, above societal norms. If I had a problem with that, I’d be a lot less self-confident, or a lot less sated.
Part 3: I not only double, I triple-answered the Number of Partners one, because it’s not the real question to me. How many partners you’ve had doesn’t bother me in the slightest, as long as certain conditions are met. It’s not the number, or the number of times, it’s why. If you simply love sex, love casual sex, love anonymous sex, and you’re just out having a good time, I will never ever care how many partners you have had, or how frequently. It’s when the motivation or acts are harmful to you emotionally that I care. Like one girl I know who would go to parties and have drunken sex with random people because she wanted the comfort and security of waking up in someone’s arms, and thought sex was the price of admission. I’ve had sex with more partners than she had, but I think she’s had sex with too many people. Contrary, perhaps, but the sex I’ve had is simply because I love having sex; hers was not. That’s the invisible line past which I worry: the first person you fuck that you aren’t fucking because you like them or because you like sex.
But who gets to define when you are having sex versus when you are having sex cause you don’t want to be alone tonight? I know that at some points in my life I have had sex because right at that time I didn’t want to be alone and I wanted the physical contact of sex. I usually choose someone I otherwise wouldn’t want as a sexual partner but with whom I have a high emotional bond at those times. Does that mean that from then on out I am not a person who makes good choices around sex? Or does that mean that you think that on those specific occasions I made a bad choice and that I learned from them and grew? Or does it mean that I made a choice in that night that met a need?
It’s so complicated.
It is terribly complicated, that’s why I deliberated on that question. To respond specifically to that point…
Well, hm. You didn’t want to be alone, wanted the physical contact of sex. You usually chose someone you had an emotional bond with, but not someone you would otherwise want as a partner. There are a couple issues on that one, so I’ll handle them individually.
1) Are you a person who makes bad choices around sex? Not necessarily. The decision you made is not necessarily ‘bad,’ nor is it necessarily ‘good.’ It really depends on the terms with which you came to that person, and how the two of you handled it during and after.
If it was deceitful, then it was probably a bad decision.
If it was using sex as a substitute for intimacy, it was probably a bad decision.
If it was honest, it probably wasn’t bad.
If it was approaching the comfort of sex for its own sake, for the physical comfort that it brings, it probably wasn’t bad.
On the whole, it doesn’t make you a person who does not make good decisions.
2) Does that mean you made a bad decision on those specific occasions? Again, maybe. Did you learn from them and grow? Hell, I don’t know. How did you handle the same need later in life?
3) Did you make a choice in that night that met a need? Did you feel fulfilled at the end of it? Did you feel better 3 days later? The root of this question is the same as the problem I originally made reference to. Did you have sex because you wanted to luxuriate in the sensations and physical bond inimical and unique to sex, or did you want intimacy, security, comfort, trust, an emotional bond, that sex can masquerade for? What did you need that night, and how did sex fulfill it, or not?
In short, I don’t think any less of you for those nights, among other reasons, you did choose people you liked and had a bond with to fulfill what would seem to be an emotional need, which fits one of my criteria for “ok sex.”
To be personal because arguing in generalities is stupid and obnoxious:
I don’t know that I was using sex as a substitute for intimacy, rather I was looking for the specific intimacy that you get from sex but I did not have an outlet where I normally had that sort of intimacy in my life. In the specific incident I was thinking about at first. Then I went back and thought some more about my history and realized that I have had many many times in my life where I had sex because I was inappropriately looking for intimacy. Really that was probably half or more of my experience before I was 18. I think I needed to have that experience though. Those experience taught me a lot about what intimacy means and I learned a lot about my boundaries and what I needed and without those early experiences I would not have found the scene when I was 18 and perhaps I would still be fumbling to figure out why I have some of the basic needs/desires I have.
I wouldn’t make the same decisions now. These days if I want the comfort of sleeping in someone’s arms I have dozens of people whom I can call. But I am lucky and I try very hard not to judge people who do not have the same luxury.
Oh, and in regards to how I feel about it later… I know that many people have the issue of feeling conflicted after engaging in some act but then eventually come to terms with it. I have had many experiences in my life that I felt really bad about three days later but they were absolutely the best decision that I could have made. I felt bad about turning my father in three days after I did it and I may have “taken back” the act then if I could have. I still sometimes wonder about the decision and feel bad in some amalgamous way. Yet… it was the right decision. I know that I wandered a bit from sex exactly, but I think it is all related.
I think part of it is, you have to know at least some of what’s in their head to make that sort of judgement. If they’re a friend of yours, you know them, and you have a good guess about what’s going on, you can sometimes do that. But it seemed to me that was asking about your gut feeling, initial reaction, general reaction – without knowing the specific details, how do you feel about the number of partners someone has. Before you have enough information to evaluate whether their choices meet your standards.
*nod* That’s the “no effect” bit. It just doesn’t bother me. If anything, it’s inciting.
Exactly Cos. I want to know if people have a gut reaction that is negative to people who have had many partners without knowing all the mitigating factors.
Other [comments]
I self identify as a slut.
other (please explain in comments)
When I was much younger, my level of sexual activity probably earned me the epithet of ‘slut’ from others who didn’t approve of how I behaved.
More recently, I’ve seen various commentary about reclaiming the word slut from its societal use as a pejorative, but whatever the new version of slut is, I’m not entirely sure it describes me – not even the me I was during a (somewhat) recent non-monogamous period of my life.
When it comes to hearing about someone’s sex life (mine for example) your opinion is:
other (please put a comment)
I almost marked the “cause sex is HAWT” option – but then I realized I don’t really want to know the intimate details of just anyone’s life, regardless of how hot the sex is. I reserve that interest for certain people and certain situations.
Re: Other [comments]
How would you define slut then?
Re: Other [comments]
Well, see … that’s why I checked “Other” rather than “No” in response to that question. I *haven’t* defined slut for myself. And I try not to read a lot into how others use the term to self-identify, either.
But, in an attempt to answer you, from the context in which it’s usually said, the new sluthood seems to imply a liberality of sexuality that I no longer seek, for various reasons. Yes, before I entered my current relationship, I was seeing, and having sex with, multiple partners. Oddly enough, though, it was more a result of my not wanting to focus on having one committed relationship at that particular moment, rather than my actively seeking more partners, that ended up creating that state of multiplicity.
First off, my relationship with the word slut goes back a LONG time. When I discovered to my confusion, that if a guy has sex with 8 women, he gets called a stud, but if a woman has sex with 8 guys, she gets called a slut.
A couple of disclaimers:
I’m only going to talk about women here.
I can’t speak for all men.
I think of myself as an “ethical slut ™”
If someone uses the word slut to descirbe themself, is your reaction:
My first flip answer is (if I’m attracted) “wanna fuck?”, can’t say I’ve actually tried it yet.
This one really depends on the context, the perceived self-confidence level of the slut-ee, and sadly, looks matter a lot. A 350+ pound woman describes herself as a slut, and my internal reaction is “my eyes, my eyes!” I’ve got my own issues with my weight also that have to be figured into that reaction.
If someone uses the word slut to descirbe someone else, is your reaction:
I’m not sure what I answered, but the question is pretty ambiguous. So to clarify; the person (A) calling the other person (B) a slut is going to have a tone on their voice that is positive or negative. If it’s negative, I am probably going to have a negative reaction to A.
I had this happen at OryCon this year. I ran into a woman at a party who was lamenting that she couldn’t take the couple of guys she was with home with her. I asked why not, we had a conversation where I said, “If you know what you want, and you are clear that it is not going to hurt your own self-conceived ethics, then go for it, anyone who is going to judge you harshy is going to judge you anyway for something else.” Ran into her at another party and was with another long time friend (male). The girl was enjoying herself kissing 3 guys. At some point as I was leaving, I reached into the throng, pulled her to me, said, “congrats on going for what you want” and kissed her for a little bit. No big deal.
The friend I was with was all upset about “the slut” and it irritated me and I kinda dressed him down for it. One of the things that bothered him that she had just let me reach in and kiss her, “some she had never seen before” well ok, I had only seen her once before, but the conversation had gotten pretty intimate.
Does the “number” of partners that someone has had affect how you feel or think about them?
Only when I am worried that they are being unsafe physically or emotionally for themself.
I think that it is ok to have some casual sex, but there is a line–I don’t know where it is though. I judge person by person.
I think these are both the same statement. There is casual sex, and then there is “trying to kill the pain” or “trying to feel something” or any other reason. If someone is telling me how many people they have slept with, I might wonder why they are telling me that.
I self identify as a slut.
Yeppers.
I describe my relationship preference as: (yes people I know that these terms are slippery but do the best you can)
I self identify as a “swinger, and it’s not a swear word dammit”. I have my wife. I have my play partners. I like to have an emotional bond with my play partners, I even like to fall in love with them.
However, my wife comes first, the next open slot is at 17, and if I find my feelings for a play partner edging into the realm of 16 or less then I need to put some more work on my relationship with my wife.
This is going to sound weird, but from an engineering point of view, I’m met a lot of swingers who have been non-monogamous for 20 + years … I don’t know that I’ve ever met a triad, quad or anything else that has lasted more than 10, though I have heard of them.
When it comes to hearing about someone’s sex life (mine for example) your opinion is:
Are there any new tricks I can learn?
Ok, that’s an interesting kink.
Ok, that is NOT an interesting kink.
Let me know if you need anymore detail, or clarification. I haven’t read back over this, so it may not track in places.
I have considered not keeping track of how many people I have sex with from here on out, but my anal retentive virgo nature won’t let me delete the excel spreadsheet. 😉
I sometimes ask how many people someone has slept with, but I tend to want to get to know a ballpark figure for determining a) how experienced are thery b) how much of a disease risk are they c) how recent were they… there are a lot of things I care about.
Oh, and I don’t think the two answers for # are the same. I know people who would answer the two in very different ways. I do know people who really don’t care in any way no matter if it is 5,000 if you are scrupulously safe and are doing it just because you LOVE sex and I know people who will start being judgmental if you have had 50 or 100 because somewhere they have just decided that too many is just fucked up.
Wow, an excel spread sheet. A part of me gasps in horror, and another part of me is thinking “Brilliant ! “
My number is somewhere between 50 and 100, I stoped counting an 49. It’s mostly cuz I lost my list, but there’s a part of me that doesn’t want to know “Hey honey, guess what, you were # 69”.
Aaaah, I see what you mean about the two not being the same. I guess you can either A) remove my selection of the second, and just leave my selection of the first, or B) Note the nuance.
As a complete and utter side note, I’m mildly interested in your feedback on your “All replys will be foreever held private” 24 hours post.
It caught me at an interesting time of the week, and could have been incredibly offensive, really interesting, arousing, boring middle of the pack kind of stuff, or some kind of weird combination of a couple of those.
I’m not sure I understand your side note. I did acknowledge the vague nature of some of the posts, but the only people who would have any idea what I was talking to or about would be the people who made the original comment. I don’t know how to respond…
I haven’t told anyone what number they are in a while and I don’t think I have shared the overall number with a lover in a while. I have a few exceptionally slutty friends that I will tell because I know we are neck in neck and they will just pat me on the back (How’s that for mixing metaphors?)
Spreadsheet: Do you keep track of just sex sex, or other things, like non-sex BDSM play, heavy makeout sessions, and the like?
Ballpark figure: I think number of partners is a misleading thing to use for both a and b, even as a ballpark. especially for disease risk: their safer sex practices are much more relevant than their number of partners.
I think that’s particularly true in some of my social circles, and I suspect yours as well – if you know a lot of poly people who talk openly about sex and disease risk with each other, they probably tend to have more partners than many people outside those circles who you may meet, and who don’t talk about it as much and are therefore higher disease risk (because, for example, they’re not in the habit of asking their potential partners about their practices with others).
As for how experienced they are… maybe that’ll be a useful ballpark in more cases, but I still think it’s more likely to be misleading than not. It conflates number of partners with amount and variety of sex, which I don’t think really works. Actually, in the case of me, it completely doesn’t work: I’ve had over 60 partners, but I think it’s still true that the majority of sex I’ve had in my life has been with my second girlfriend. A hugely disproportionate amount of my “experience” also comes from that relationship, including first learning and trying BDSM and D/S roleplay sorts of things. And at the time, I’d only ever had sex with two other people.
I do not keep track of other things. I wonder how much that is a function of me feeling guilty about sex and not about other things. I will play (bdsm with no sex) with people at a street fair and never learn their name and feel no guilt about it. I can’t seem to have totally no-strings attached sex though.
You have some really good points. Damnit. I hate it when I have to realign my thinkng with reality. 😛
50 or 100 is high enough that I get uncomfortable contemplating that person as a potential partner. I may go ahead if there’s enough of a connection otherwise, but not without an accompanying slight bit of squeamishness. Actually, anything over 30 lifetime is probably enough to be flagged on my radar (I’m still in single-digits myself).
spreadsheet? Maybe someday… right now, fingers are sufficient to track them. But I do have a “possible future” spreadsheet, with possible activities, which I circulate periodically (for veto or approval) to existing partners before doing more than flirting with anyone on the list. Kind of the same, except hypotheticals instead of history.
Mmmkay. I’ll explain a bit here. When someone else calls someone else a slut my reaction is person dependant because its dependant on the person spitting it out and what they mean by that. If they mean something negative I generally then feel negatively about them (not about the person they are talking about) and I tend to feel a verbal slap is then in order.
Mostly though I don’t hang with people who say slut like its a bad thing.
Okay I said other on the hearing about sex causes it depends on a lot of things. Sometimes I’m just not interested cause I got other things on my mind. Sometimes I am interested cause its hot or it tells me something important about a friend of mine and how they are doing. Often I’m interested because it tends to sorta make me feel better about my own sexuality. Kinda makes me feel more human.
Occasionally I have found myself not wanting to hear it but that is person dependant and situation dependant. I do know at least one person who just brags about it. And that aint sexy. And sometimes people talk about the details instead of talking about the feelings and then its just empty porn to me and I’m dissappointed. It can both be revealing or it can be hiding of true intimacy. So it depends.
Ok, but it sounds like you don’t judge whether or not you want to hear it based on whether or not you are involved with them sexually.
Can you tell me more about your feelings about bragging about sex? Why isn’t it sexy? Where is the line crossed?
No, it isn’t about whether or not I’m involved with them. If I’m having jealousy or insecurity issues at that moment, with that person, I might want to slow down the flow of information or even speed it up. I have a need to know. A serious need to know when if comes to my primary partner especially but, well details may or may not help at the moment.
Hmm. Am I making sense?
Bragging. It’s a competitive thing. I don’t like competitive shit. I’m not myself very competitive and if someone is just trying to tell me how cool they are because they had sex like this or that or with loads of people, they are on some level trying to one up someone even if its not me they are trying to one up. And turning complex human relationships into a scorecard is just (to me) using and ugly and certainly does not honor what is going on.
There is no line to cross. Talking about loads of details just cause one wants to share is cool. That’s not bragging. That’s sharing good fortune. When talking about it is competitive and is meant to give an exaggerated view of that persons desirablility or skills, that’s just boring. And again, competitive.
It is a matter of judging intent. That’s why there is no line to cross. The same information could be relayed by two different people for completely different reasons –
O MY GOD ITS FUCKING SNOWING. Ahem. Sorry bout that.
As I was saying the different intent would make the experience of listening different to me.
There are some people who are actually more comfortable telling stories of sex than they are explaining emotion. It doesnt mean they are bragging when they talk about sex but they might be using it as a mask. That’s were I get frustrated.
But plain old bragging? Ugh.
I like your stories though girly. You’re always just sharing your happiness or pain when you do tell.
X
It’s funny that you use the word “scorecard” because I have been asked recently how many boys are on my scorecard and then I spent a while talking about how that made me feel in therapy. Anyway. That’s a side comment.
How do you judge someones intent though and whether or not you should be irritated by it?
I don’t judge someone’s intent so much as perceive it. As for how I perceive it I imagine there are multiple cues. If I’m irritated I just am, that doesn’t happen cause I “should” be.
Example: a friend calls me and says hi and launches into a familiar tale, I ask how he is, he says great and tells me he’s making great money and having lots of sex, mentions multiple people. This is normal for him. Always same story; great money, loads of sex. If it varied at all then I wouldn’t be so suspicious. Start from the fact that his stories of how much money he’s making don’t hold water. I’ve often suspected him of being a liar. Has good qualities of course, that isn’t one of them. Well anyway, I ask “How about love? How’s love?” He asks whats wrong with me and I said that he didn’t speak of love. So he tells me love is good. Changes his tone a bit and tells me a bit about his relationships. Now I can’t begin to really explain this person. He’s a complex one. He’s not too comfortable in his skin and he tends to tell everyone within ear shot “lots of money, lots of sex”.
Bottom line is my perception of anyone could be wrong but its all I got to go on. I do take a wait and see approach in many cases. If someone brags it doesnt mean they will lose my friendship. I simply wont find it sexy. And likely I will find it less than interesting. I have very little patience for competitiveness.
Does this bother you hon?
What are you trying to figure out?
You know there is one other thing. I said the number of partners one has doesn’t affect how I think about them. Generally that’s true. However it does a little bit simply cause if a friend has multiple partners I tend to watch em to see how they work it. I don’t feel like I got it all figured out so the more understanding I can glean from their experience the better. And I tend to feel kinda proud of em for making it work, cause it is hard work sometimes, though I also know that I prolly dont really know all the dirty details of what it takes to grease it all. But I’d like to know! Yes I would. So. I guess it makes me more curious.
I hope all my friends take care of themselves in the relationships they got but that doesnt have shit to do with how many of them they got. Only having one relationship can be just as hard work as having lots.
This is a really cool point. But it sounds like this is more asking about how someone handles multiple relationships in a larger sense than about just sex specifically. Sex separate from relationships seems to be a whole different ball of wax.
Hrm…. sex separate from relationships… Are you certain such a thing exists? Is true that people can be more or less involved but well it does take some involvement if only for a few minutes to make sex happen.
Well yes though it is the context of multiple relationships that interests me. But also this does extend into the details. Multiple relationship involvement say when there are multiple partners in the same room. Or in the same play party or in the same bed or puppy pile or…
Yah, I swear I’m just making it up as I go along but the details *are* important.
Blahblahblah you have a relationship with your mailman blahblahblah.
🙂
No, I don’t think that I have any sort of relationship with the guy I met at a sex party and fucked that night. We had less than two hours worth of time spent together total and we may never see one another again.
okay. its not an extended relationship. still it took some relating to fuck.
Meh, this is semantics girl. Depends entirely on the definitions. And as I see it its not too important. Is it?
(Making myself answer before I read the discussion)
On Q’s 1 and 2:
The way people around me have ever really used the word slut in conversation, the meaning has always been that the person referred to is sex-positive and/or open-minded rather than the derogatory connotation. I’m aware of the derogatory meaning, but I’ve not experienced it used that way by anyone around me. I suppose I could tell from the delivery/tone _if_ that were the meaning a speaker were giving the word, I’d pick up on it.
On 3:
I chose other. I can’t say that the number of partners has NO effect on my thinking, but none of the other answers seemed right for me either. (How much of a disease vector I feel someone is has nothing to do with their count, but much to do with their attitude towards safety/protection and how risky _they_ feel various activities are.) My first though upon learning that someone has had n partners where n is large, is that wow, they must have picked up some really neat tricks, perhaps even some I don’t know, Cool! It also means that to have been so “successful” they must be charming/persuasive/witty i.e. not a loser, and therefore possibly more interesting to get to know. (Unless, of course, they’re lying to impress me.)
4:
Well, I’d _like_ to still be able to think of myself as a slut, but I don’t think I qualify now, by anyone’s definition. I enjoy sex a lot, and would like to think that I’m open to new possibilities, but am simply not seeking them right now. I definitly went through a slutty phase, but seem to not be there anymore. Partly that was a product of the envirionment and where I was in my personal development at the time, and it was a very beneficial thing for me to have done.
My answer to 5, that I consider myself polyamorous, was forged during this period and was something I thought about a lot during that time, and that seemed to be what the core of thoughts on the matter distilled down to. I’ve only even been talked into a monogamous commitment once, it did not sit well with me at the beginning, and developed into a disaster.
On the last one, I’m a big voyeristic perv. If there’s any chance I could get off on it, I want to hear about it.
I’m really happy that you have only had positive associations with the word slut. 🙂
I’m a big fan of the phrase a “slut for one.” SFO for short. Tom and I used it and it made me happy.
One of your questions to one of the other responses got me thinking…
How do you think you managed to shift into thinking that sex with lots of people is a positive trait?
The basis of thinking that promiscuity is “bad” traces back to the religious roots of our culture 2000 years ago. At the time, monogamy, fidelity, and virginity were behavioral tenets that would greatly mitigate disease transmission and a encourage a common family structure in the society as a whole, and overall were beneficial beleifs to encode into the dogma. But in the modern era, we have a better understanding of medicine and science. We now know the mechanisms of disease transmission (mostly), of pregnancy and how to avoid unwanted ones, that they did not. The overall disapproval of such behaviors has no basis anymore in our modern culture, when, based on our knowledge, we can take steps to lessen or avoid the things that actually expose us to risk, while allowing ourselves to enjoy the things that can and should be freely enjoyed. It was reasonable for the culture that existed 2000 years ago, and is simply out of date today. I came to this conclusion at a very young age, about the same time that I rejected most of the ideas of christianity, the existence of santa claus, and other such myths.
HEY!!! Don’t you dare knock Santa!!!
You are so getting coal next year. 😛
My takes… I parse “slut” as an insult, usually IME aimed by women at other women. Reinforced by my seeing more partners = less attractive, absent any other metrics.
Do you just not hear the positive comments made around you frequently? I know there are people in your life who use it in a good way.
If they use it, either it isn’t around me (possibly because they’ve realized I’ll think they’re attacking the other person), or I;m thinking someone is being self-deprecatory or insulting to someone else, when they aren’t… or I’m just not hearing it used positively.
I want to hear about what ever you feel like writing about. Your thoughts on poly/mog/whatever inspire me to reexamine my own view on the world and of myself. It’s one of the huge things I love about you. You are honest, even when it hurts.
and regarding identifying…
I identify as liking sex. Loving intimate touching and thriving on physical closeness. It breaks my heart that sometimes I am so negative aobut this aspect of myself. Sex is good. Enjoying my, not to mention other’s, physical contact is very good. I just keep tripping over words and world views. I figure, eventually, it will resolve into some sort of understanding.
My sexual orientation is ‘yes’ so I understand. 🙂 I also have the same issue of being very negative towards myself for liking it so much.
Maybe we can pat one another on the head and say, “Yes, it’s really ok to like sex” and hearing from the other person will allow it to really sink in.
Other: If someone uses the word slut to descirbe someone else, is your reaction:
it depends on the tone of voice/facial expression used. I may think it’s positive, I may dislike the person using it.
On the last question: Yeah, i wanna hear because a) I hate gossip, but I also hate being out of the loop- I like getting it from the source and b) I’m very interested in peoples’ actions/reactions and social patterns.
To the second-to-last-question: I avoid labels like the plague. I’ve had very many experiences where putting labels on things has reduced their facets. As in, once it was labeled “relationship/friendship” “masculine/feminine” “goth/hippie” etc, the person/thing/concept/action was greatly reduced in its capacity to be explored, used, etc. I must prefer things, especially relationships (as in, interaction between two given people, regardless of the TYPE of interaction) to be unlabeled so they can be transmuted as fluidly and with the least awkwardness possible when they need to be.
That is a very poly attitude to have. 🙂
On calling someone a “slut:”
I think sluts are allowed to call other sluts sluts, and it’s wonderful. However, When a prude calls someone a slut in a derogatory way, they are generally implying that the slutty person is dirty or immoral, and I generally want to slug them.
On “Self-identification as a slut:”
I self-identify as a slut, but I regrettably have only ever had wannabe status. 😉
I don’t think that being a slut has anything to do with the number of people one is sleeping with. I think it is about approach to sex and attitude and…
I seem to be weird though.
My interpretation of “slut” when used as a self identity is neutral, actually. I take almost all of the meaning from the tone of voice and context used. I’ve heard it used as a point of pride and I’ve heard it used as a form of self flagellation. I take very little meaning from it other than one of self judgment. In particular, I don’t think it says anything about the type of sex the person has or the number of partners.
When used to refer to someone else, I again take almost all of the meaning from context and tone of voice. Like “bitch”, it can be anything from playful admiration to outright epithet.
I don’t generally self identify as a slut. How I react if someone calls me a slut depends entirely on… you guessed it, tone of voice and context at the time.
Yes, the number of partners someone has means something to me. But it’s probably not the traditional meaning and it certainly isn’t the one ostensibly claimed in western culture.
I do think there is such thing as “too many” partners, but that has to do more with why the next (or last) partner was selected. There are people who feel a driving need to sleep with new people all the time. Or with lots of people. Or to use people. Or to set themselves up to be used. For these folks, even a total count of 2 or 3 could be “too many”.
Other people seem to do just fine with very large numbers. They seem to be giving, healthy people in this regard. And frankly, I admire them and seek to learn from them. I made that decision decades ago and have been learning ever since. And yes, I think you are often, (usually?), in this category.
As for hearing about someone’s sex life… depends. I’m all about how it does or might affect me, or sometimes, how it affects the people I care about, (which includes you). I’m perfectly capable of reading when I’m up for it and skipping when I’m not, though. I think you should journal what you want. I’d rather self filter than be filtered.